Quick beginner taildragger tips for dogfighting!

[WildBillKelsoe]

Being new to the Mustang since last year, I have been experimenting with some tactics to beat AI. Now these may or may not apply to all taildraggers current and future, but these worked for me, and if you have something similar, this is where to share.

 

1- Extension for prevention:

The title sounds weird, but actually it is very self explanatory. When you can't beat AI in short range fights, extend away diving to the ground, and trim so rudder is ALWAYS ball centered. This will achieve shortening the engagement distance and also the extra speed can be used with under 4 G turns to zigzag and creep away.

 

2- Cutting for immunity:

Again, a much weird term. Cut your throttle so the torque induced or reduced will assist your maneuver. In general, increasing throttle will induce a left yaw effect, so when the speed is reducing on a vertical climb, to counteract right tendencies, double on throttle, while applying same side pedals. The opposite is true and both are particularly important in winds.

 

3- Flaps.. Flaps.. Flaps:

Whenever saddled, use the flaps on established (fixed) stick pull to raise the nose gently without suffering buffeting. It is the essence of energy fighting.

 

4- Force him into wind, or be forced with the wind

The more winds in his face, the less chance he can get away quickly, and the more winds with your back, the more speedy you become, but also more prone to getting killed quickly.

Study your mission winds and put him at your altitude of choice.

 

5- Gears... And then... More Gears..:

If you want to dive quickly and just can't without entering buffeting and stall, drop the gears. Just be careful not to tear them (or the fairing doors for that matter) off.

 

6- Get inside cities!

With tall buildings, you can maneuver much efficiently and still puzzle him about your next turn. Let alone you can get shot at and all buildings (and their tenants no less) will absorb some of those deadly bullets headed your way.

 

7- Be unpredictable:

The more you change your flight turns, patterns, regimes, the more the AI waits for a steady turn. Don't give him that chance.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

4- Force him into wind, or be forced with the wind

The more winds in his face, the less chance he can get away quickly, and the more winds with your back, the more speedy you become, but also more prone to getting killed quickly.

Study your mission winds and put him at your altitude of choice.

 

Not sure about the rest of it, but unless there's massive wind-shear, the above is nonsense.

[cichlidfan]

I was more curious why you would give up all of your altitude to fly among buildings.

[Der_Fred]

In an extended DF, you usually lose height and end up at ground level after a few minutes. Making use of ground structures helps.. There a story of how a Me109 flew under the Eiffel Tower to escape a P51.. it didn't work as the P51 pilot did the same thing :-)

[Der_Fred]

Playing with the AI, running at horizontal high speeds, up and downs and just hanging there at around stall speed, using a lot of rudder correction, and max'ing temperatures. The AI follows a bit, but I'm not sure whether is using WEP, but invariably it cannot hold with you.. maybe that's just AI. :)

LongFW.trk

[Echo38]

Not sure about the rest of it, but unless there's massive wind-shear, the above is nonsense.

 

Squirrel's right; if you're both in the same airmass, you'll both be "feeling" the same wind, barring small differences for gusts. Relativity and all that. So it will take exactly the same time for him to gain 1000 feet separation from you, regardless of whether the pair of you have a 100 MPH headwind or a 10 MPH tailwind.

 

Regarding the gear: the F4U had landing gear specially designed to function as an airbrake; it was to be dropped before diving to allow a steep dive at a slower speed. However, the P-51 did not have such gear, and--damage aside--dropping the gear before/during a dive would only make you dive slower, not faster. Also, dropping the gear under any conditions will make you more likely to buffet and stall, not less--the clean aircraft has better stall characteristics than with gear extended.

 

Addendum: minor CoG stuff aside, there's no notable difference between a taildragger and a tricycle gear fighter, once they're off the ground. They fly the same--they just taxi, take off, and land differently. Any tactic which applies to a taildragger fighter will also apply to a tricycle fighter, all else equal.

 

I definitely concur with the keeping the ball centered while extending, though! Nothing like a slip to help the enemy catch up to you.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Echo38

[White Owl]

3- Flaps.. Flaps.. Flaps:

Whenever saddled, use the flaps on established (fixed) stick pull to raise the nose gently without suffering buffeting. It is the essence of energy fighting.

Nope! The combat flaps setting is there to help tighten the turn. Far from being the "essence of energy fighting", combat flaps increase your drag and bleed off energy. Use sparingly, only when necessary.

 

4- Force him into wind, or be forced with the wind

The more winds in his face, the less chance he can get away quickly, and the more winds with your back, the more speedy you become, but also more prone to getting killed quickly.

Study your mission winds and put him at your altitude of choice.

This couldn't possibly be more wrong. Read up on airmass.

5- Gears... And then... More Gears..:

If you want to dive quickly and just can't without entering buffeting and stall, drop the gears. Just be careful not to tear them (or the fairing doors for that matter) off.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler to learn how to enter a dive without buffeting and stall? This absurd landing gear trick is a crutch. I'm having trouble even imagining how you could stall an airplane entering a dive...

[Echo38]

Far from being the "essence of energy fighting", combat flaps increase your drag and bleed off energy.

 

This is true. Still, the tactic itself (tightening your turn by keeping your stick where it is and dropping 10 degrees of flap, rather than pulling back harder on the stick) is a valid one that doesn't occur to most people. It's a good tip to use under certain conditions, I think. (TBH, I haven't ever done it in this sim--it was the P-38 I used it with, in lesser sim-games. Not sure how much it helps our P-51.)

[Der_Fred]

1- Extension for prevention: No problem with this.. puts the AI where you can see him. If you're not fast enough, is also not a problem 2- Cutting for immunity: The DCS P-51 seems to have a yaw effect without having to worry about P or T effects, but yes they can be useful. 3- Flaps.. Flaps.. Flaps: I'd say rarely necessary, unless going slow... 4- Force him into wind, or be forced with the wind You'd have to face the same wind forces 5- Gears... And then... More Gears..: No G's equals no stall.. just neutralise all control surfaces and engine/prop effects 6- Get inside cities! Always use ground objects to your advantage.. even flying 'directly' into enemy flak with a 6. Just remember to roll out :-) 7- Be unpredictable: IOW use your imagination (noggin).. nothing beats this

[Der_Fred]

MODS - Delete previous unreadable post please !

 

 

1- Extension for prevention: No problem with this.. puts the AI where you can see him. If you're not fast enough, is also not a problem

 

2- Cutting for immunity: The DCS P-51 seems to have a yaw effect without having to worry about P or T effects, but yes they can be useful.

 

3- Flaps.. Flaps.. Flaps: I'd say rarely necessary, unless going slow...

 

4- Force him into wind, or be forced with the wind You'd have to face the same wind forces

 

5- Gears... And then... More Gears..: No G's equals no stall.. just neutralise all control surfaces and engine/prop effects 6- Get inside cities! Always use ground objects to your advantage.. even flying 'directly' into enemy flak with a 6. Just remember to roll out :-)

 

7- Be unpredictable: IOW use your imagination (noggin).. nothing beats this

[Yob]

This is true. Still, the tactic itself (tightening your turn by keeping your stick where it is and dropping 10 degrees of flap, rather than pulling back harder on the stick) is a valid one that doesn't occur to most people. It's a good tip to use under certain conditions, I think. (TBH, I haven't ever done it in this sim--it was the P-38 I used it with, in lesser sim-games. Not sure how much it helps our P-51.)

 

I force the Fw-190 into a turn fight i turn flaps to 15 or 20 and just cruse around, this helps a lot.

 

Because i fight at low speeds.. around 150-200 or lower depending on how bad the situation is. this leads me to putting the flaps down..

 

You don't need to pull hard on the stick, which means less stalling because of less G's. This also gives me the ability to keep the fight out of energy. Because of the low speeds at ground level. In fact about 1 out of 3 times the AI crashes because it can't turn and evade me at low speeds like i can in the 51. so it trys to go up and stalls out, and thats it.

 

Eli'Jah

[Echo38]

The DCS P-51 seems to have a yaw effect without having to worry about P or T effects, but yes they can be useful.

 

There are several things that cause yawing: P-factor, gyroscopic effect, and propwash vortex. Probably a couple others I'm forgetting. P-factor is based on pitch; gyroscopic effect is based on rate of pitch change, and propwash is based on power setting. All are affected by speed as well. It's a complex dynamic.

[AndyJWest]

 

You don't need to pull hard on the stick, which means less stalling because of less G's.

 

Eli'Jah

 

At a given speed and rate of turn, the G force is fixed. Flaps make no difference whatsoever.

[Yob]

At a given speed and rate of turn, the G force is fixed. Flaps make no difference whatsoever.

 

Yea i know that, what i was trying to suggest is that you are not going as fast, and don't need to pull as hard on the stick, which can create G induced stalling. But also having flaps increases your turning speed in turn cycle.

 

Eli`Jah

[Der_Fred]

The DCS P-51 seems to have a yaw effect without having to worry about P or T effects, but yes they can be useful.

There are several things that cause yawing: P-factor, gyroscopic effect, and propwash vortex. Probably a couple others I'm forgetting. P-factor is based on pitch; gyroscopic effect is based on rate of pitch change, and propwash is based on power setting. All are affected by speed as well. It's a complex dynamic.

I don't know what to say.. :-):)

[Fifi]

Finally managed to kill my first AI in 1VS1...pfff...took me long!

I realised i had curves mapped to my joystick (didn't remember that!) and deleting them gave me more precision and fast responses...stupid me.

And watching few videos around the web helped me in fact.

I don't mess anymore with manifold and RPM, i let them almost max, just before the red line all the fight. Coolant set on auto does the job quite fine without blowing up engine.

Only in dives i can reduce propeller RPM to get more speed if needed.

But getting this little bastard doesn't take 5 minutes short :D

[=AFJ=JaMz]

What a strange post from the Op

[Echo38]

There are several things that cause yawing: P-factor, gyroscopic effect, and propwash vortex. Probably a couple others I'm forgetting.

 

Just remembered another: speed itself. Even with the engine off and the propeller removed, speed alone will affect yaw, because the P-51's vertical stabilizer is not quite aligned with the fuselage. On an aircraft with a perfectly-aligned stabilizer, speed alone won't cause yaw, but will still affect the other three yaw factors I mentioned. On an aircraft with a not-aligned stabilizer, however, speed alone will affect yaw even without the other three factors present.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Echo38

[sydost]

Only in dives i can reduce propeller RPM to get more speed if needed.

 

 

I wonder how come you get more speed by reducing RPM? If you have power on during the dive I think reducing RPM reduces power and thrust from propeller and should result in slower acceleration. In case you are off power during dive reducing RPM reduces drag from propeller and then it should give you more speed. Am I totally off in the way I think?

[Fifi]

I wonder how come you get more speed by reducing RPM? If you have power on during the dive I think reducing RPM reduces power and thrust from propeller and should result in slower acceleration. In case you are off power during dive reducing RPM reduces drag from propeller and then it should give you more speed. Am I totally off in the way I think?

 

Now a bit lost on that thing...

Reducing Prop RPM in dives doesn't reduce my speed (on the gauge anyway) but doesn't seem to significantly increase it either...

But reducing RPM in dogfights while diving should lower the temp gauge a bit for a time (having a nasty tendancy to pass red line if not careful), hence preserving engine IMO.

[sydost]

Now a bit lost on that thing...

Reducing Prop RPM in dives doesn't reduce my speed (on the gauge anyway) but doesn't seem to significantly increase it either...

But reducing RPM in dogfights while diving should lower the temp gauge a bit for a time (having a nasty tendancy to pass red line if not careful), hence preserving engine IMO.

 

 

So you meant to say "Only in dives I reduce propeller RPM to get more cooling if needed." ;)

[Fifi]

^^Ok, yes :thumbup:

 

But reading manual:

The P-51D propeller is a Hamilton Standard four-blade, hydraulic, constant-speed propeller with a diameter of 11 ft, 2 in and a blade pitch range of 42°, set at 23° at low pitch and 65° at high pitch. The propeller RPM is controlled by the Propeller Control lever on the throttle quadrant in the cockpit. The propeller governor automatically controls propeller pitch to maintain a constant speed between 1800 and 3000 RPM, depending on the Propeller Control setting. The propeller cannot be feathered.

 

So reducing RPM from red line (3000) to 1800 should change the prop pitch angle, right?

And with a 23° prop pitch angle, the plane should "tow" more and go faster than with a 65° prop pitch, or is it the inverse? :huh:

 

EDIT: haha...it's the inverse!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Fifi

[Echo38]

When gliding, you should pull back the propeller lever to decrease drag. However, when at high throttle, pulling back the propeller lever loses you power. (It's also damaging to the engine, if throttle is high and propeller lever is low.) So, the only time pulling back the propeller lever should make you go faster is when your power is lower. If you want to go faster, the best way is this: push forward the propeller lever, and then push forward the throttle. If you're already at max RPM & max MAP, that's the best thing to do for speed, whether climbing, level, or diving. (Engine heat's another story, of course.) For the sake of the engine, you don't want your prop lever significantly lower than your throttle, barring bizarre exceptions. (E.g. Lindberg's P-38 cruise thing ... and TBH, I don't have a good source for even that one.)

Edited November 7, 2013 by Echo38

[sydost]

So reducing RPM from red line (3000) to 1800 should change the prop pitch angle, right?

And with a 23° prop pitch angle, the plane should "tow" more and go faster than with a 65° prop pitch, or is it the inverse? :huh:

 

EDIT: haha...it's the inverse!

 

 

Yep, you are right that the 65 degree blade angle "tows" more than 23 degree angle and also you are correct on that the propeller blade angle changes when reducing RPM from 3000 to 1800. I think you might be missing the point that Mustang has a propeller governor which automatically increases the blade angle when you are accelerating while it is keeping the RPM where you have set it. The governor pretty much does the job for you so the pilot doesn't have to manage the RPM while manouvering to get the best out of the engine. Highest power and thrust from propeller results with max MAP and max RPM. This is my understanding of this issue.

[Echo38]

Highest power and thrust from propeller results with max MAP and max RPM. This is my understanding of this issue.

 

Confirmed elsewhere by ED engineer Yo-Yo.