Advice on sticks

[doveman]

I'm getting a bit fed up with my Thrustmaster Hotas X http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Hotas-Joystick-PS3/dp/B001CXYMFS/ref=pd_cp_vg_h__0 mainly because it doesn't feel very accurate around the center and has a lot of resistance which makes it difficult to use to balance helos.

 

In fact I just read this post by someone in relation to X-Plane:

 

"The T hotas X worked quite adequately with fix wings, but when I tried helicopters, I had hard time learning. I read all the books and tutorials and flight school docs on this site and was still progressing very slowly. Until i came to a subject about changing field width to 90 or larger, where I could actually see cyclic moves and that was when I noticed a lag between my movement and what Xplane sees and portrated in sim. I timed the lag to be roughly 1/3 of a second. I had no problem flying a small plane like cesna 172 in that config. With helis its another story because they are unstable by nature so this lag became an issue even when I tried to anticipate the delay in input.

 

So to prove my theory right, i went ahead and ordered the 16000M. I got it in my hand about 15 min ago and proceeded to fire up Xplane, calibrated new device, reversed collective input, and i was hovering on first try! granted still moving a bit but difference was day and night!!! Looking at cyclic's movement, it's not exactly in sync but very close!

 

So I think it's fair to conclude that

1. T hotas X is fine for fix wings

2. T hotas X is probably not a good choice for Helis.

 

now if i can figure out how to soften the springs in the 16000M, right now it's quite stiff..."

 

So I'm wondering if my stick is just as unsuitable for flying helos in DCSW or if that's just an issue with X-Plane. It seems strange as I thought Thrustmaster were generally regarded as making good quality sticks.

 

The 16000M costs about £45 and has a nice lot of buttons on it but I think I'd miss having the big throttle in my left hand with the buttons under my fingers that I get with the Hotas X. I might well adapt to it though. Of course there's the option to buy something like the CH Pro Throttle as well but that is a lot of extra money to spend.

 

The other option is the CH Fighter Stick and it would be good to have all those hat switches, which effectively give as many "buttons" as the buttons on the 16000M. I haven't spent much time with the A10-C yet but the hats would be very helpful for that I think. Of course, it's a lot more expensive at around £90 but my other concern is that it's reportedly quite a broad stick and can be uncomfortable for those with small hands, like myself. I also wonder if it's going to be as good/accurate, particularly for helos, as the 16000M with it's Hall effect magnetic sensors?

 

I note that the CH Fighter Stick and the CH Pro Throttle both have a 3-way mode button and wonder if these can be chained, so that pressing one would switch mode on both devices, as I imagine it could get a bit confusing having to switch modes individually on each device? If I get the Fighter Stick, I wouldn't be getting the Pro Throttle anytime soon though and would have to make do with the throttle slider on the stick, so is that usable for the helos and aircraft?

 

I also note that the mouse stick on the CH Pro Throttle is self-centering and I wonder how it can be used in DCSW, for things like clicking on cockpit controls, if it moves the cursor back to the centre position whenever it's released?

[doveman]

Just tested the Hotas X in the Huey and there does seem to be a slight lag between moving the real stick and seeing the cockpit stick move, although I'm not sure it's as much as 1/3s but I'm not really able to judge that sort of time by eye.

 

Certainly moving the stick to the right I have to move it further to make the cockpit stick move than I do when moving it left, so that's not very good.

 

I'll have to test in the KA-50 later to see if that's the same.

[txmtb]

I had one and it didn't take long to realize something was wrong with the stick.

Turns out that Thrustmaster used pots that centers are in the middle on all the axis'. So it creates a big deadzone on the stick and another one in the middle of the throttle where the detent is. It made formation flying and refueling a absolute headache.

It creates a dead zone anytime you are around one of the "centers" for an axis. As in if you have the stick pushed forward and right and then move it directly left it will still hit that deadzone when it crosses the center position of yaw.

I was very dissapointed in that stick as I had used Thrustmaster for years.

[hannibal]

for flying helo's, hands down you need a cyclic.... as in a joystick with a long shaft...

[doveman]

I was very dissapointed in that stick as I had used Thrustmaster for years.

 

At least it's not just me then! It was only £25 so I guess I shouldn't be surprised really.

 

I think I'll give this to my Dad as it's probably good enough for his occasional Cesna flying in X-plane and get myself something more suited for helos.

[doveman]

for flying helo's, hands down you need a cyclic.... as in a joystick with a long shaft...

 

I can't afford one of those custom long shaft sticks though, not to mention I haven't got a dedicated space to install one. I'm sure plenty of people are getting by with standard desk-mounted sticks anyway, it's just a matter of which one to get. An FFB-stick might be ideal but I don't think it's worth getting one of those (if there's even anything decent available within my budget) if it means sacrificing in other respects, such as the precision of the stick or the amount of hats/buttons.

 

I'm leaning towards the Fighter Stick for it's hats and triple-mode switch (with indicators which is vital I think to see which mode you're currently in. I've used Xpadder to implement modes but without any indication of the current mode it gets too confusing, unless you only use "Switch mode whilst x is held") but I'd still be interested to know whether the 16000M is vastly better in terms of precision. I also read some comments that the Fighter Stick is very loose and doesn't center very well but I'm not sure about that as it was only one person who said that.

[doveman]

So has anyone got any experience with both the 16000M and the CH Fighter Stick and can comment on which is better?

 

I don't think the Fighter Stick has the Hall effect magnetic sensors, so it's probably not as accurate but I don't know if the difference is enough to worry about.

 

If it's still accurate and sensitive enough, with no drag/resistance/dead zone around the center so that it can be used to make the necessary constant small adjustments when flying helos, then I think that's probably enough and the button layout and hats is much more preferable to the 16000M.

 

If it's not good enough though, I guess I'll have to hope and wait for a stick with both the hats like the Fighter Stick and the magnetic sensors of the 16000M, as there doesn't seem much point buying the 16000M for the magnetic sensors if the button layout and lack of hats is going to hamper me, although I guess I might be able to use voice activation in place of the hats.

[doveman]

Ooh, this might be a good options when it comes out, as it's got hall sensors and a proper throttle http://www.saitek.com/x55/ No idea on price at the moment though, so it might well be out of my price range.

 

I'd still like to hear opinions from anyone who's compared the CH Fighter Stick and the 16000M though (surely there's some of you out there?)

[Korn]

I didn't use the 16000M but i can tell you this: The CH build quality is way higher. It has longer throw but low resolution (old style: pots) of 128 per axis. The pots are high quality and very likely will have a long life (i have thousands of hours in 10 years on mine) but they're still just pots. Also the Fighterstick has a somewhat unusual gimbal system which some people dislike.

 

Unfortunatelly CH Products stopped selling spare parts (like pots) this or last year so if one of the pots it's screwed so are you, they're a rather non standard electronic part and you'll have quite a hard time finding a replacement. That being said it's safe to said that a Fighterstick will most likely last you way longer than the 16000M.

 

Also fyi the Fightestick it's not a twistie.

 

The X-55 it's not priced yet but definitely will be more expensive than the X-52pro so do your math. Still it will probably be cheaper than the Warthog, i don't see that it will be enough so but what do i know.

[doveman]

Thanks Korn, that's helpful :) I wasn't aware that the 16000M build quality wasn't as good as the CH.

 

That's a shame that CH aren't selling spares anymore but if it's as well-built as you say, hopefully if it doesn't fail in the warranty period it should last me a good few years. It's not going to be used excessively anyway, as I don't fly that much at the moment but probably would do so more if I had a decent stick ;)

 

One of my main concerns with getting the Fighterstick is whether it's accurate enough for the fine control needed to constantly balance helos, which the reviews of the 16000M seem to suggest is great for with it's hall sensors. If the Fighterstick's not great for that, it's probably best for me to wait and see if the X55 is as good as the 16000M for that and if I can afford it. I don't really use the twist stick on my Hotas X as it doesn't work well for me with trying to move the stick at the same time. I use the rocker on the throttle for rudder at the moment but it's not great and I'll have to look into getting some pedals sometime but I could probably manage by mapping a couple of buttons (or using the keyboard) for rudder in the meantime.

 

Whilst I could probably make do without all the hats and buttons, by using my Xbox360 controller for things like DMS, CMS and voice commands for other stuff, the two things that I absolutely need are precise and usable stick and throttle/collective (and no I don't have the time or skill to build myself one, even though I'd love to). Even in ArmA2, which hardly has an accurate FM, I have to use my M&KB as that allows me to make very fine and accurate adjustments, whilst my Hotas X stick is so rough and has such a large deadzone that it's impossible to use for helos.

[Korn]

You're welcome, i hope it helped.

 

I'm actually posting to correct my previous statement about the Fighterstick resolution, it's not 128 but 256 per axis (128 it's the middle point so i wrote that without thinking).

 

I just checked and my stick has just turned 7 last week lol and like i said thousand of hours of use (1000+ on il2 alone so it's not an exageration).

 

I really liked this stick (i also have an x-52 and a M$ Sidewinder FF2 which i don't use) and i still do but this is definitely the last stick i'll ever buy with pots in it. I think it's ridiculous to use potentiometers in this day and age when you have cheap, reliable and extremely precise digital sensors available. So in that respect i find it hard to recommend CH Products anymore. Also it's really not cheap for a stick (especially since you can only buy a separate throttle also from CH or you need to buy a whole HOTAS just for the throttle).

 

LE: there are some interesting sticks from Russia here: http://flightsimcontrols.com/store/joysticks/

 

However hard to find info from actual users, probably all are posting in russian forums only.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Korn

[docfu]

I'm really interested in how that Mamba handles. Unfortunately I doubt I'll ever buy another joystick with a non-metal cast handle now that I own a Thrustmaster HOTAS...

[Ssnake51]

You're welcome, i hope it helped.

 

I'm actually posting to correct my previous statement about the Fighterstick resolution, it's not 128 but 256 per axis (128 it's the middle point so i wrote that without thinking).

 

I just checked and my stick has just turned 7 last week lol and like i said thousand of hours of use (1000+ on il2 alone so it's not an exageration).

 

I really liked this stick (i also have an x-52 and a M$ Sidewinder FF2 which i don't use) and i still do but this is definitely the last stick i'll ever buy with pots in it. I think it's ridiculous to use potentiometers in this day and age when you have cheap, reliable and extremely precise digital sensors available. So in that respect i find it hard to recommend CH Products anymore. Also it's really not cheap for a stick (especially since you can only buy a separate throttle also from CH or you need to buy a whole HOTAS just for the throttle).

 

LE: there are some interesting sticks from Russia here: http://flightsimcontrols.com/store/joysticks/

 

However hard to find info from actual users, probably all are posting in russian forums only.

 

Quite agree with you regarding the quality of CH products. Never had a problem with any of their joysticks over the last 15 years I've bee simming. But they really do need to upgrade their product line. Unfortunately I haven't heard any reports that they plan to do so.

[PureEvil]

I'm really interested in how that Mamba handles. Unfortunately I doubt I'll ever buy another joystick with a non-metal cast handle now that I own a Thrustmaster HOTAS...

 

"interchangeable grip compatible with Thrustmaster's HOTAS (the adapter per specific joystick grip is required)"

 

"Please, note that the joystick is shipped with standard plastic grip from Defender Cobra M5. * Adapters for other grips (Thrustmaster, Saitek, Logitech) will be available soon. The metal grip from VKB is in development phase."

 

http://flightsimcontrols.com/2013/10/black-mamba-and-tm-warthog-grip/

Edited December 19, 2013 by PureEvil

[docfu]

Yeah, like I said, I really enjoy have an all metal base and handle. When I saw they wanted 270 Euros for a piece of plastic...

 

Well, I'll just be sticking with my Warthog...

[PureEvil]

When I saw they wanted 270 Euros for a piece of plastic...

 

well, i see it the other way around, they want 270€ for metal mechanics on the inside. Warthog is good i guess, but it is metal only on the outside from what i've seen. i myself use CH Products, plastic inside and outside, but it works great! compared to many other plastic or metal joysticks and throttles :P