Un-commanded engine shutdown

[bart]

I've got a problem at the moment that I can't pin down to anything specific so I thought I'd throw it on the forums for any thoughts or advice.....

 

On almost every flight I keep getting an un-commanded R/H engine shutdown in flight. No warning captions on the panel other than what you get when the engine shuts down, Low oil pressure, Hydraulic pressure and R/H Gen captions. I even get it when invulnerability is turned on so it isn't anything to do with battle damage. Sometimes it happens quick, others it takes a while before it happens. Also you can't do a re-start in flight, once it shuts down....it's dead.

 

Some things I've tried are to boot the PC up with the HOTAS already plugged in, I tried plugging it in after PC boot up. I've tried doing Axis tune in the options screen before playing the sim, and there's no pattern to it. It still happens.

 

Now something new happened today. After it happened I started the APU and then a normal engine start (all temps were within limits) and it refused to rotate as usual. After a couple of minutes the APU failed, it shut down and wouldn't restart. Shortly after that the L/H engine shut down in a similar way to the R/H. It was on full throttle for a while to compensate for the R/H shutdown earlier. I had plenty of fuel and had been flying for around 20 mins I think.

 

Now this has led me to a new chain of thought. Does anyone know of engine failures occurring if you keep the engines at full throttle for a lengthy period? The engine fuel flow switched on the HOTAS were in the NORM position all the time so the engine governors were working ie the switches were not in the override position which will cause engine damage after a while.

 

If this is the case they have got this completely wrong. The engines (providing they are fully serviceable) should be capable of sitting at full throttle continuously.

 

Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem?

 

I've uploaded two track files if anyone wants to take a look. They are self explanatory as to what happened in the flight by their names.

Right Hand Engine shutdown.trk

Right-apu-left- Engine shutdown.trk

[Evil.Bonsai]

The only thing I can think of is you have some type of controller/kb/mouse setting triggering engine shutdown.

 

Try deleting your control configurations, see if that changes.

[Xavven]

Your right T-Handle gets pulled out in the first track you posted, right after you target the armor on your TGP and click on an OSB on the left MFCD to configure your DSMS. Aside from directing the flow of the fire extinguishers, the T-Handle also cuts fuel to that engine.

 

I noticed you hitting OSBs without clicking before takeoff. Do you have an MFD panel accessory? Maybe one of your OSBs is misconfigured to hit the T-Handle.

[Xavven]

Okay, I just got done watching your second track. Your right T-Handle gets pulled out after you drop your 8th GBU-12 (one of my favorite weapons btw.) Then your left T-Handle gets pulled while you're flying over the coast feet wet. I couldn't tell if it was an errant click -- check your key bindings and that should hopefully solve it!

[ralfidude]

Pulling of the T handle happens also when you try to chat online.

 

Unfortunately in all the infinite wizdom that is ED, you can still click things in the cockpit when you are typing. So a LOT of times I accidentally shut my engine off by pulling that T-handle because it is right in the spot where I have to click the TEAM tick off so I chat only to my team side, or when Im trying to find my mouse, because it turns into a black little invisible line.... I have the chat screen so much...

 

 

But this is obviously only for when you are trying to type, either than that, yeah, you are somehow pulling the T-handle.

 

PS: I believe pulling the T-handle ONLY cuts the fuel flow to that system, nothing else. The fire extinguishers fire off by the discharge button on the right of the T handles.

[badger66]

But doesn't the hazard warning kick off when you pull the T handle ?

[bart]

Thanks a lot for your help guy's.........

 

That was a good spot Xavven, didn't even realise this was happening. Yes I've got the Thrustmaster MFD's. I don't think you get any captions on the warning panel when the T is initially pulled. The only captions I was getting were associated with the actual engine shutting down.

 

Anyway problem solved....thanks guy's so much.

 

I will double check my switch allocations just in case there's a conflict.

 

Thanks again guy's I owe you all a beer!

[Xavven]

Pulling of the T handle happens also when you try to chat online.

 

Unfortunately in all the infinite wizdom that is ED, you can still click things in the cockpit when you are typing. So a LOT of times I accidentally shut my engine off by pulling that T-handle because it is right in the spot where I have to click the TEAM tick off so I chat only to my team side, or when Im trying to find my mouse, because it turns into a black little invisible line.... I have the chat screen so much...

 

 

But this is obviously only for when you are trying to type, either than that, yeah, you are somehow pulling the T-handle.

 

PS: I believe pulling the T-handle ONLY cuts the fuel flow to that system, nothing else. The fire extinguishers fire off by the discharge button on the right of the T handles.

 

Oh my god, that's exactly the reason I suspected the T-Handles in the first place -- I pulled them THREE TIMES on the first day I played multiplayer. That got me using TeamSpeak real quick, let me tell you.

 

Yeah, I think we're on the same page regarding the fire extinguishers. They don't actually fire until you press the discharge button, but the T-Handle decides where it goes. You can put out any of the three engines with either of the two extinguisher bottles.

[SkateZilla]

which is why I Fly in ALT+F1 View, No Buttons to press accidentally.

[bart]

Just been flying online and it happened again. Same thing.......R/H engine shutdown, and it's definitely the T handle being pulled that caused it as I had to reset it.

 

Thing is I don't know what control is pulling it. I've checked the control allocations and there are none set up to operate the T handles. When it happened I wasn't even using the mouse. Under normal conditions the only thing that operates these T handles is a R/H mouse click on the handle.

 

I tried to do an inflight restart on the engine several times but it refused to re start which was a little annoying.

[ralfidude]

Yeah, APU restart on engines are damn near impossible in DCS. Only go for windmill restarts. I don't know why, I used to be able to do an APU restart more often before, but after a certain patch it just didn't work as well or at all anymore.

[Xavven]

Just been flying online and it happened again. Same thing.......R/H engine shutdown, and it's definitely the T handle being pulled that caused it as I had to reset it.

 

Thing is I don't know what control is pulling it. I've checked the control allocations and there are none set up to operate the T handles. When it happened I wasn't even using the mouse. Under normal conditions the only thing that operates these T handles is a R/H mouse click on the handle.

 

I tried to do an inflight restart on the engine several times but it refused to re start which was a little annoying.

 

I noticed a strange behavior with engine restarting in this game. If you're on the GROUND and repeatedly pull the T-Handle while an engine is at full power, it'll restart fine any number of times (remember to motor the engine for 30 seconds first). However, if you're in the AIR and you pull a T-Handle on an engine at full power, it seems to accumulate damage until a time comes where it will never restart (I can usually reproduce the issue after no more than three consecutive t-handle shutdowns + APU restart at 1000 ft altitude). And I know I'm doing the same thing in the air as on the ground as I purposefully tested this -- only difference being in the air I am running the other engine at full throttle. I think this is a bug, honestly.

 

Another bug is that the manual claims that to restart an engine, you can have it on motor for 30 seconds, then bring the throttle to idle THEN switch the engine from motor to normal. In actuality, you have to switch the engine from motor to normal FIRST, THEN bring the throttle to idle. Another bug?

 

Getting back to your original problem, it's time to do troubleshooting the old fashioned way -- process of elimination and problem localization. Some things to try include flying a stock mission, ensuring random failures is disabled in the options menu, disconnecting your computer's input devices one at a time (your MFDs, your flight stick, your mouse, your keyboard) to see if you can make the issue go away.

[Xavven]

Another thing to try could be this... fly a blank map and set your hog to autopilot an orbit or straight & level. Don't touch ANY inputs. Just let the game run for 30 minutes and see if the handle pulls.

[kk0425]

If I do accidentally pull the T handle in flight (only happened once or twice) I'll just ignore the APU or maybe turn it on to help with bleed air, but I'll do a cross bleed start instead most of the time. On the fuel panel there is a switch near the top marked Crossfeed. Just flip that and run your other engine at full throttle (you're supposed to turn off the bleed air on the environmental panel too but I have no idea if that affects anything), and then start your engine like you normally would on the ground. What it does if I'm not mistaken is feeds some of the bleed air from your working engine to your engine that's not operating.

[bart]

If I do accidentally pull the T handle in flight (only happened once or twice) I'll just ignore the APU or maybe turn it on to help with bleed air, but I'll do a cross bleed start instead most of the time. On the fuel panel there is a switch near the top marked Crossfeed. Just flip that and run your other engine at full throttle (you're supposed to turn off the bleed air on the environmental panel too but I have no idea if that affects anything), and then start your engine like you normally would on the ground. What it does if I'm not mistaken is feeds some of the bleed air from your working engine to your engine that's not operating.

 

The cross feed switch on the fuel panel is to allow both fuel tank groups to feed the same engine and thus stopping a fuel imbalance problem or if a booster pump fails you can open this valve allowing say the left booster pumps to feed both engines. I think it says to open the cross feed if doing a windmill start, but I'm not sure what advantage would be gained by doing this as the affected engine's booster pumps will be on anyway....

 

When you turn the bleed air switch off that gives you maximum available bleed air for engine restart as it shuts off cabin pressurisation etc...........if it works!!

 

So basically were no sure if this restart issue or even the T handle thing is a bug or not!! I will try disconnecting stuff one at a time to try and eliminate a hardware issue.

 

I've never been able to get a windmill restart to work!.....I have only tried it in 1.2.6 though so maybe it is bugged with this release.

 

The game also locked up last night while playing online, at the exact point of weapon release (GBU-12) but I think this is a known issue with this release?.....multiplayer broken :(

[Xavven]

The cross feed switch on the fuel panel is to allow both fuel tank groups to feed the same engine and thus stopping a fuel imbalance problem or if a booster pump fails you can open this valve allowing say the left booster pumps to feed both engines. I think it says to open the cross feed if doing a windmill start, but I'm not sure what advantage would be gained by doing this as the affected engine's booster pumps will be on anyway....

 

My best guess is that turning on crossfeed is a best practice when an engine goes offline because you're going to have the other at full throttle to keep you in the air. That engine is going to guzzle fuel and cause a fuel tank inbalance until you get the other engine restarted. Maybe this is a preventative measure, then?

[kk0425]

The cross feed switch on the fuel panel is to allow both fuel tank groups to feed the same engine and thus stopping a fuel imbalance problem or if a booster pump fails you can open this valve allowing say the left booster pumps to feed both engines. I think it says to open the cross feed if doing a windmill start, but I'm not sure what advantage would be gained by doing this as the affected engine's booster pumps will be on anyway....

 

You are correct after rechecking the manual states that the crossfeed switch allows fuel pumps to feed both engine systems.

 

But the method I posted above still works. You can verify when on the ground by starting the left engine, then when that is running, shut off the APU and then try to start the right engine. But I cannot find anything in the DCS manual about crossfeed providing bleed air as well to the non operating engine.

 

And at the risk of getting too far off topic, it is an operating procedure to do a crossfeed start in the F/A-18 if the APU is shut down before both engines are spinning since you cannot start the APU back up within 5 (or 15?) minutes after shutting it off to avoid damaging it.

[Xavven]

You are correct after rechecking the manual states that the crossfeed switch allows fuel pumps to feed both engine systems.

 

But the method I posted above still works. You can verify when on the ground by starting the left engine, then when that is running, shut off the APU and then try to start the right engine. But I cannot find anything in the DCS manual about crossfeed providing bleed air as well to the non operating engine.

 

And at the risk of getting too far off topic, it is an operating procedure to do a crossfeed start in the F/A-18 if the APU is shut down before both engines are spinning since you cannot start the APU back up within 5 (or 15?) minutes after shutting it off to avoid damaging it.

 

I don't know about the Hornet, but the DCS A-10C flight manual says not to start your second engine without the APU if you're on the ground.

[rud]

I don't know about the Hornet, but the DCS A-10C flight manual says not to start your second engine without the APU if you're on the ground.

 

Not sure if it's bad for any of the systems but I'm guessing the main reason not to do it in real life is the amount of throttle you have to give the left engine to get the right engine spinning. It's probably not an enjoyable experience for anyone and anything behind you.

 

I did a cross-bleed start on the ground just last night in my A-10C, not because I wanted to, but because I accidentally shutdown the APU too early :doh:

[ShuRugal]

Not sure if it's bad for any of the systems but I'm guessing the main reason not to do it in real life is the amount of throttle you have to give the left engine to get the right engine spinning. It's probably not an enjoyable experience for anyone and anything behind you.

 

 

and running the engine at high power on the ground increases odds of FO ingestion.

[kk0425]

In any case, I happened to stumble across this which cleared up some confusion for me. Hopefully it will help with others too.

 

[bart]

Just been reading A10's over Kosovo......great book by the way and highly recommended.

 

Anyways on page 249 for those who have got it there's an interesting account of an A-10 pilot that had a double engine flame out and he tells how he managed to recover the aircraft. The account of his APU assisted engine restart makes the real thing look easier than the sims in flight restarts!!!

 

Back to topic I'm still trying to trace a possible control binding that seems to be causing an un commanded L/H mouse click. I think when I move my field of view around with the Track-ir and the mouse cursor is stationary on the screen (as it would be as I'm not moving the mouse around) I get a L/H mouse click for some reason and whatever switch is under the cursor, if any, at the time is pressed or moved. I only noticed this today when the R/H MFD suddenly went blank. I thought the Lilliput screen had lost it's power but the MFD in the cockpit on the tv screen was also blank. When I looked it had been turned off with the rotary switch to the left of the MFD screen. Now I definitely didn't select this. I've checked my key bindings in the options screen and I can find nothing untoward.....

 

The mystery continues......