Su-25KM Is this in Production?!

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

There was some evidence that the Su-25T saw some action in Chechnya, but AFAIK this was sort of "operational testing" - I don't think the type ever entered actual service with the VVS.

I don't know what does it take for the aircraft to be recognized as "entering actual service"? On page 111 of the "Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot: Close Air Support Aircraft" it says that the "small number of the Su-25T aircraft are being operated by the Russian Air Force".

 

The Su-25T's were built from from ground up, they were not existing modified airframes. Su-25T's were involved in the Second Chechnya war, with specific list of targets they destroyed. And according to the aforementioned book, small number of them were operated by Russian Air Force.

 

Russia was in bad shape and simply was not able to order large quantity of anything, however, they did everything they could to maintain the scientific and production capability of the high technology aircraft.

[GGTharos]

The Su-25T is not a 'high technology aircraft'.

 

Alfa said operational testing, emphasis mine. Do you understand what this means?

 

The Su-25T is by no means the main front line attack aircraft - not even close to it, and it doesn't look like it ever will be. Instead, Su-25A's have been converted into the Su-25SM configuration.

 

I really don't get your objection, it makes no sense to me. The Su-25T/TM seems to be some sort of operational test bed, it's not a mass-produced aircraft like the others. The Russian Air Force can keep it around as much as it likes, but as long as they have such a small number of them, and they continue to not increase that number, it's not going to be anything particularly special - at least the Russian Air Force doesn't appear to think so.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The Su-25T is not a 'high technology aircraft'.

 

Alfa said operational testing, emphasis mine. Do you understand what this means?

And what does it mean when in the book it says "currently operated by Russian air force"?

 

Russia did what it could do with very, very little money it had at the end and after the Cold War. Nothing in Russia happened by NATO standards, but by the standards of the extreme shortage of money and human resources. Thus, small units were built, tested, and some of them introduced in operational service. That's what happened with Su-25T which is similar to what happened with MiG-29S and R-77's.

 

The Su-25T is by no means the main front line attack aircraft - not even close to it, and it doesn't look like it ever will be.

So what if it is not? What is your point?

 

 

...but as long as they have such a small number of them, and they continue to not increase that number, it's not going to be anything particularly special - at least the Russian Air Force doesn't appear to think so.

Your main argument is the number of produced aircraft? How many time have we covered this argument so far? But, let us do it again. Russia did not have money to buy any large quantity of anything, let alone expensive new technology aircraft that it did not immediately need. Thus the small numbers of weapon systems, such as Su-33, MiG-29S, Su-25T, R-77 and so on.

 

Even if there is only ONE Su-25T in service, that would mean that it is operational in service and that's it. Would Russia win the war with ONE Su-25T? For sure not, but it still makes Su-25T operational, in service aircraft. And we have it modeled in DCS, and it is cool!

[Vedexent]

The SU-25T is a cool aircraft, and it's ton of automation make it a good entry level aircraft to DCS World.

 

It doesn't appear to be the future of the Su-25 line, however, but an "evolutionary dead end".

 

I'd still like a full DCS World level SU-25 and/or SU-25SM (6DoF, clickable cockpit).

[GGTharos]

I guess you don't understand words or something. :)

 

The Su-25T has been rejected as 'the next thing'. It's Su-25SM upgrades instead. It has nothing to do with money, given that a Su-25SM upgrade is probably quite costly.

 

The Su-25T has nothing that resembles 'extensive new technology' onboard, not the one modeled in DCS, anyway.

 

Your main argument is the number of produced aircraft? How many time have we covered this argument so far? But, let us do it again. Russia did not have money to buy any large quantity of anything, let alone expensive new technology aircraft that it did not immediately need. Thus the small numbers of weapon systems, such as Su-33, MiG-29S, Su-25T, R-77 and so on.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I guess you don't understand words or something. :)

Pay attention my friend. :smilewink: Alfa used two phrases: 1. "operational testing" and 2. "... entered actual service".

 

Focus GG, focus ... :smilewink:

 

 

The Su-25T has been rejected as 'the next thing'. It's Su-25SM upgrades instead. It has nothing to do with money, given that a Su-25SM upgrade is probably quite costly.

Rejected after it entered service? I would say, most likely, yes. Also, I have no idea ( do you) what does Su-25SM upgrade is about? Is it upgrade to existing airframes, or was it a completely new manufactured airframes? Please provide source of information.

 

The Su-25T has nothing that resembles 'extensive new technology' onboard, not the one modeled in DCS, anyway.

All right, I'll give you this one.

[GGTharos]

You mean 'facts' like handwaving missing vital components? :)

 

Perhaps the RWR should be completely removed? :)

 

So really, GGs the statement was more of a personal opinion than anything to do with the facts.

[ФрогФут]

Which aspect of the Su-25T in DCS does not represent reality?

Symbology, weapon use logic, etc.

[ФрогФут]

Symbology on the HUD has changed over time back during the pre-production years 83-86, and one of them is what we have in DCS.

Any real Su-25T HUD screen?:)

It is as real as any other FC3 aircraft,

There are manuals and other docs on other FC3 aircraft, have you seen any on Su-25T?:)

The Shkval logic should be like the Ka-50 has, I agree with that, it's simplified.

KAB-500 - wrong, Kh-29T - wrong, etc.

Su-25T was done based on devs feeling of how it should be done. at the moment

Edited December 14, 2013 by ФрогФут

[RIPTIDE]

Su-25T was done based on devs feeling of how it should be done. at the moment

:cry_2::cry_2: My life has been all a lie.

 

 

:D

[joey45]

Cake.

[GGTharos]

It just feels like something is missing.

 

 

Oh yea?

 

On this old photograph, you can spot the Beryoza RWR in the same location:

 

 

:thumbup:

[joey45]

I like playing 'spot the difference' game...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Symbology, weapon use logic, etc.

All right. There is a lack of information and you made things up. Understandable, due to the fact that only few aircraft were ever produced and entered service. Su-27, Su-33, F-15, MiG-29 symbology in FC is not a 100% accurate either, is it?

 

KAB-500 - wrong, Kh-29T - wrong, etc.

I know I am "beating the dead horse" by bringing the Yefim Gordon and Alana Dawes book "Sukhoi Su-25 Frgofoot: Close Air Support Aircraft" as a reference.

 

On page 107 and 113, Kh-29T is listed as Su-25T weapon. On Page 115, the KAB-500Kr and KAB-500L are both listed as Su-25T weapons.

 

I just can not imagine that Yefim and Alan have just "come out of the blue" and while smoking marihuana made up a book with all this information.

 

You might not have classified info on all these weapons, that I understand.

 

Su-25T was done based on devs feeling of how it should be done. at the moment

I understand and accept that. However, this statement of yours, does not deny existence of the Su-25T. It simply states, that the way it is modeled in FC is what you think it is in a real aircraft.

[Silver_Dragon]

Expected future 6DoF cockpit can improve them...(something missing but better of DCS:W cockpit)

[ФрогФут]

On page 107 and 113, Kh-29T is listed as Su-25T weapon. On Page 115, the KAB-500Kr and KAB-500L are both listed as Su-25T weapons.

 

I just can not imagine that Yefim and Alan have just "come out of the blue" and while smoking marihuana made up a book with all this information.

 

You might not have classified info on all these weapons, that I understand.

I understand, that KAB-500 and Kh-29T aim through they own seeker. Not the shkval, like we have in the game.

All right. There is a lack of information and you made things up. Understandable, due to the fact that only few aircraft were ever produced and entered service. Su-27, Su-33, F-15, MiG-29 symbology in FC is not a 100% accurate either, is it?

Isn't. But it's close and moving even more close.

[Alfa]

I don't know what does it take for the aircraft to be recognized as "entering actual service"?

 

Strange question - for the MoD to accept the type into the arsenal of the armed forces of course.

 

There are lots of examples of aircraft prototypes that have been sent to operational units for field testing. In some cases they were later adopted into actual service(e.g. the Su-33 which wasn't officially accepted until 1998 ) and in some cases they weren't - e.g. the Ka-50 also saw some action in Chechnya, but has been rejected in favour of Mi-28 and Ka-52.

 

In the case of the Su-25 it is clear that for the time being the Russian MoD is going for the Su-25SM upgrade instead of new-built Su-25T/TM. Whether the long term prospect for new CAS aircraft will be based on the Su-25T/TM or an entirely new type is another question.

 

What GG and I are saying is that there are varies aspects of the advertised attributes of the Su-25TM/Su-39 that don't seem practical(to say the least).

[Alfa]

On this old photograph, you can spot the Beryoza RWR in the same location:

 

 

 

You can? - where do you see the Beryoza in that picture?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Strange question - for the MoD to accept the type into the arsenal of the armed forces of course.

What if the small number of units was tested, the MoD decided not to place order for the type. However, those few units are integrated into the armed forces and are used for special operations? There is no evidence that Su-25T was NOT accepted into the operational service.

 

Yefim and Alan's book clearly states that the "small unit of Su-25T was accepted as operational". For me, that's good enough. I understand that, on this forum, some just don't take Yefim Gordon's word as credible. Those have to add the name of Alan Dawes to their list.

 

What GG and I are saying is that there are varies aspects of the advertised attributes of the Su-25TM/Su-39 that don't seem practical(to say the least).

And that is all right and I accept that as well.

[ФрогФут]

If you translate below, it basically states that the targeting can be accomplished by first placing it on the HUD then activating the on-board display, with the ability to zoom in and further identify the target prior to the launch.

So, the Shkval TV display must be coupled with 29T in a way that it can be used, so it's approximated well enough in DCS.

Where is it from? Kh-29T/KAB image should appear on IT-23 as soon, as they are selected. Shkval has nothing to do with it.

In addition, if you understand Russian, you can watch one of the episodes of "Ударная Сила" about the Su-25 and it does show the HUD during testing of its upgrades like the T model, and it looks very close to what we have in DCS.

What time in the video?

[Boberro]

You can? - where do you see the Beryoza in that picture?

 

Memory panel is similar :D

 

Regarding RWR I've read they removed old Beryoza because it was to be Pastel.

 

But cockpit look so tight and small (pilot's view must be low at least) that I don't know where they could put another screen.

 

Another info I read in 2009 - some higher ranks military officials wanted to renew Su-25T(M) because it was worth. It is not bad idea, they could just replace old TV, re-arrange a bit cockpit, and change Vikhrs for something better.... on such plane they are not too good.

The rest - airframe - is not bad.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Boberro

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Regarding RWR I've read they removed old Beryoza because it was to be Pastel.

Su-25T had integrated ECM suite which included Pastel (RWR), Suhogruz (IC jamming), chaff and flare dispensers and Gardeniya (radar jammer/ECM). I don't know what display system was used for Pastel.

[Alfa]

What if the small number of units was tested, the MoD decided not to place order for the type. However, those few units are integrated into the armed forces and are used for special operations?

 

Yes thats possible, but I doubt it Hajduk. I would think that in such case they are returned to the respective design bureau - even when a type has been accepted into service, they tend to keep the prototype airframes as testbeds for further developments.

[Alfa]

Memory panel is similar :D

 

Yeah I suspect that eXPeRT is seeing the Ekran panel as a SPO-15 display. :)

 

Regarding RWR I've read they removed old Beryoza because it was to be Pastel.

 

Yes thats the thing

 

But cockpit look so tight and small (pilot's view must be low at least) that I don't know where they could put another screen.

 

Thats just a question of layout - e.g. look at the cockpit of the Su-25SM which has a large LCD on the left side of the front instrument panel, but I agree with you that the Su-25T/TM cockpit layout doesn't leave much room for it.

 

Another info I read in 2009 - some higher ranks military officials wanted to renew Su-25T(M) because it was worth. It is not bad idea, they could just replace old TV, re-arrange a bit cockpit, and change Vikhrs for something better.... on such plane they are not too good.

The rest - airframe - is not bad.

 

I heard that the military wasn't interested in a radar(and associated weaponry) in connection with the Su-25 at all - whether built-in or podded. I also heard some critism from pilots in regards to the basic concept of the Su-25T/TM.....i.e. along the lines of the extra systems complexity not being worth the weight penalty/less agility in typical CAS type of missions.

 

But we will see what happens :)

Edited December 15, 2013 by Alfa

[Alfa]

Su-25T had integrated ECM suite which included Pastel (RWR), Suhogruz (IC jamming), chaff and flare dispensers and Gardeniya (radar jammer/ECM).

 

Supposedly yes, but..

 

I don't know what display system was used for Pastel.

 

Pastel can use either a main MFD or a separate dedicated threat display, but the latter is clearly not there in the Su-25T cockpit and the TV display does not look very multi-functional to me....nor would it be particulary practical with only a single display for everything :)