Pop Up attack against targets secured by Sa-18 Manpads

[Kearf]

I try to engage a pre planned target area (trucks with Mk82HDGP) which is covered by a BUK and 2 single Manpads.

 

I come in very low (treetop level) and very fast (320kts) for a pop up attack, because of the threat of the BUK.

As soon as i reach aprox 2nm (3.7km) from the first manpad, it opens fire immediately and always ( 5 attempts or more) hits me, regardless of flares or maneuver(breaking left or right).

 

There is no other unit linked in group with the single manpad unit.

 

Question :

How do i engage targets, without a sead strike against the Long Range SAM in a pre planned pop up attack when 2 single Manpads cover the combat area?

 

 

 

[sobek]

IRL you wouldn't stand a chance and such an attack would not be performed.

[Jarnob]

You don't.

No SEAD, attacking an area covered by manpads and covered by a long range system is almost suicide.

Use SEAD for long range SAM and high level attack to avoid manpads.

Else in my opinion its just a matter of luck - with higher success rate when you manage to stay as low level / shortest pop up as possible...

[Kearf]

I thought that IRL A10's are designed for a high threat environment. And you never know if there is a manpad or not.

 

Pop Up attacks are designed so the enemy has no time to react to the first strike.

 

Or not?

[Jarnob]

I think the manpad excellence in DCS is also a bit overrated. How much are the chances that manpads are shouldered and ready to go exactly at the time a lone A10C pops up?

Normally it takes some response time. There should be some random response time calculated into DCS manpads.

[Kearf]

I forgot to mention that the first manpad fire's before i do my pop up.

So i am at tree top level and got shot down when i enter maximum range of the Sa-18 even if i use pre-emptive flares.

[Jarnob]

Guess thats a Caucasian Superman Pad :)

Better use SEAD and high level.

[Kearf]

If i only go in high, what is the purpose of pop up attacks?

 

I thought its a way to engage targets who are covered by long range SAM systems. But if a single manpad can nullify this tactic, its like there is no use for pop up attacks. I also noticed that BMP2's are not only deadly against helicopter's, but also A10's popping in.

[Bushmanni]

DCS doesn't model enemy being in low alert state and requiring longer time to react. It also doesn't model visual acquisition of targets realistically as the targets are acquired pretty much instantaneously when there's LOS (and trees don't block LOS in DCS) while in real life low flying jet aircraft would be spotted pretty much when it's on top of the spotter. My parents house is a some kind of regular waypoint for military training flights as they fly over quite often at low altitude and I have never heard them coming until few seconds before they have been on top of me and I have never visually spotted the jet until I'm in it's 3/9 line. This is how it has been when I have been working outside. If you were doing nothing but waiting for one to come you might be able to see it few hundred meters before it's on top you. The house is located in the middle of open fields and surrounded by 10-15m high forests about 100m away from the house.

[Flagrum]

MBot wrote a nifty script that makes manpads behave more realistic.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116726

[sUrge0n]

A pop up is somewhat of a misnomer for the A-10, primarily because of the inability to maintain a decent airspeed. Also, the concept has limited use today...most A2G attacks are flown out of a orbit type of pattern.

 

Some info about Pop-ups : http://www.fsgoggles.com/combatforum/index.php?topic=57.0

Edited January 22, 2014 by sUrge0n

[Kearf]

I dont perceive any difference when i use the detection script, which i extracted from the detection script demo.

Just a bit more randomness in the detection range. (approx. from 2.2nm to 2.5nm in 3 runs)

But still absolutly no surviveability.

 

That the A10 has no surviveability within low altitude in a combat environment with manpads sounds very strange to me, because i thought it was build for exactly this kind of missions.

 

Hog Basics: RAF Bentwaters Tactics Guide 1982 page 5

In this European scenario, we flew at low altitude. In this context, “low” meant below 300’. So…for high threat, low altitude ops…plan on navigating at about 300’ and 300kias…in the attack itself, you can drop down to a lower altitude as conditions permit and push it up to max speed (but don’t hold your breath!). Think 300/300 and you’ll be OK!

Maybe i am wrong.

But still, i can remember last year i talked to an austrian anti air crew officer about the mistral weapon which is in use in austria and is also a 3rd generation IR-Seeker missile like the SA-18.

 

He told me about a complex network of information how it get passed etc. and that there is always a multilayer defense network of all kinds of AA weapons in the operation area. If he gets a call from his commander that an air-threat is entering his area of operation and he can spot the target visually, then he can destroy the target even if it pops flares. But ONLY if the seeker allready has a lock-on.

 

If the plane pops flares before he can lock on, his chance of success degrades noticeable.

 

I can't help myself other then to ban manpads for missions i want to fly. :(

 

edit :

 

Also i am curiose why the A10 has this big gun, if it wasn't meant to be low? What use do i have of this gun, when i am at 20.000ft or more ? Wasn't this gun designed to crack tanks? Can i destroy tanks with this gun when i am at high altitude? I don't think so.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kearf

[Tucano_uy]

Remember also, that AI units can see and detect through trees, so unless you have a building or a mountain in between, they have line of sight with you. Then pop up or not pop up is the same...

Edited January 22, 2014 by Tucano_uy

[Flagrum]

Just keep in mind when and for what the A-10 was designed for. Back then, in 197x, the intended mission was to fight the onrolling tanks of the soviets in middle germany (-> Fulda Gap). While soviet doctrine was to advance under an anti-air umbrella, low flying could help here a bit (rolling hills everywhere) against SAMs but perhaps not so much against MANPADs. But then again, manpad technology back then wasn't as sophisticated as it is perhaps nowadays. And I would bet, the employment of MANPADS during an ongoing assault of god-knows-how-many tank battalions directly at the frontline might also not have been too efficient.

 

And that is also what the GAU-8 was designed for: against state of the art tanks ... of 1960-1980

 

Today, A-10Cs don't really fly against tank columns under a SAM umbrella. They fly against shepherds under trees and bushes ...

[Kearf]

So i tested my pop up attack now with the release version of the "Detection Script" and it was a big difference.

 

Now the Igla attacked me after my bombing run and not while i am still low before popping. I did only 1 testrun now, because i wanted to share my experience.

 

I highly recommend this script for Manpads.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=117424

 

edit :

 

@ Flagrum :

 

I understand that absolutly. I just have troubles believing the way manpads are working here in DCS-World. And also the information network around all anti air vehicles.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kearf

[quyes]

There are several topics on Manpads and why they are so lethal with the default settings. There's a couple of limitations within DCS that make them exceptionally deadly as a result of there short range and therefore a pilots lack of time to react:

 

-Preemptive flares don't prevent a lock, they only increase the chances of deploying a flare right a missile launch and therefore decoying the missile.

 

-AI sees through trees. So unless you have a hill to hide behind low flying is useless.

 

-100% alert status 24/7 and hair trigger reflexes. The AI doesn't need to eat or sleep so they're always on guard and fully alerted to everything around them.

 

Because of these three limitations DCS's Manpads definitely have an advantage over their real world counterparts. I haven't tried that script out yet but I definitely think I want to give it a try. It's kind of boring flying over the Manpad threat constantly.

[WildBillKelsoe]

attacks in A-10C follow SEAD flights...

[Xavven]

That the A10 has no surviveability within low altitude in a combat environment with manpads sounds very strange to me, because i thought it was build for exactly this kind of missions.

 

I highly recommend reading the book A-10's Over Kosovo (you can find a free pdf online, just search). In 1999, A-10s flew over SAM and AAA threats. They had strict altitude decks sometimes as high as 10,000', but they negotiated it lower as the war progressed to more like 8,000'. Seems you don't go to low altitude unless AD threat is minimal, for example Afghanistan (though correct me if I'm wrong since I'm a civilian.)

[Xavven]

A pop up is somewhat of a misnomer for the A-10, primarily because of the inability to maintain a decent airspeed. Also, the concept has limited use today...most A2G attacks are flown out of a orbit type of pattern.

 

Some info about Pop-ups : http://www.fsgoggles.com/combatforum/index.php?topic=57.0

 

Wow, that bombing chart and the A-10 pilot commentary is pure gold. Thanks for sharing!

[Serp Supreme]

DCS doesn't model enemy being in low alert state and requiring longer time to react. It also doesn't model visual acquisition of targets realistically as the targets are acquired pretty much instantaneously when there's LOS (and trees don't block LOS in DCS) while in real life low flying jet aircraft would be spotted pretty much when it's on top of the spotter. My parents house is a some kind of regular waypoint for military training flights as they fly over quite often at low altitude and I have never heard them coming until few seconds before they have been on top of me and I have never visually spotted the jet until I'm in it's 3/9 line. This is how it has been when I have been working outside. If you were doing nothing but waiting for one to come you might be able to see it few hundred meters before it's on top you. The house is located in the middle of open fields and surrounded by 10-15m high forests about 100m away from the house.

...I wish my house was used for simulating bombing runs by the Air Force... :cry:

[WildBillKelsoe]

A pop up is somewhat of a misnomer for the A-10, primarily because of the inability to maintain a decent airspeed. Also, the concept has limited use today...most A2G attacks are flown out of a orbit type of pattern.

 

Some info about Pop-ups : http://www.fsgoggles.com/combatforum/index.php?topic=57.0

 

Hey thanks Surgeon. So now it is safe to say the minimum altitude is 3000 feet for DSMS settings in all fragment munitions, except CBU's of course...

 

Coupled with a TOF of 10 seconds under most radio comms in various videos online, we get near reality here... Not fully.