Fighter pilots, what is your general tactic?

[Pajeezy]

F-15, MiG-29, Su-27, whatever. How do you approach general combat?

 

Say you're on a multiplayer server. You are flying solo. You just took off from your airbase. How do you go about your next step when approaching the enemy? Stay very low throughout the flight? Fly high? Is mid-level flight the most dangerous? This is all considering there is no AWACS assistance, btw.

 

And any other pointers when you're out and about and don't know what to expect, when flying solo and with wingmen. Thanks for any help

[TAW_Blaze]

Gotta love this forum don't we, typed about 4 long pharagraphs and then got logged out and lost it all. Here we go again..

 

Situational awareness is the most important. You want to know the position of as many enemies and friendlies as you can before you go into a fight. Based on this, you can plan how far you can go and where you can escape. Don't focus on a single guy, especially if he's constantly beaming or dragging you. You'll lose your SA quickly and some guy that you can't see will kill you. If you have multiple guys close try to take an offset so you only have to deal with one for a little longer. This might not be possible in some scenarios.

 

Nearly every russian driver thinks altitude is his renemy. They are wrong. Stay low when you're sneaking someone with terrain masking, but never do the same above flat terrain. Before the shooting starts, you want to get higher and faster than the enemy. This'll ensure that your missile has more energy, meaning he needs to spend more time being defensive. This will also give you the chance to take the offensive once you've dealt with his missiles and close the distance while he's still busy trying to notch/drag. After the first volley, you want to crank and dive and optionally notch/extend if either your missile is gone active or you doubt that you can defeat his missile by cranking and diving. Cranking basically makes his missile fly a longer trajectory, while diving makes the missile come down to thicker air where it loses it's speed much quicker.

 

What is also very important, to build and learn the correct rules and fly by them. I've heard a lot of new guys thinking that "the pros" can just do whatever they want and they'll get away with it. That's not how it works. Observe the map, read the briefing, note where people fly generally. Note the enemy SAM threat zones, and your friendly SAMs aswell. Make sure you always fly with an objective, and make sure that objective differs from solely killing the enemy plane. Stay conscious of what's going on around you, and then even if you get shot down you'll learn something every time.

 

I'll point you at another thread that is more specific about fighting:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100117

 

Flying with a wingman opens up infinite dimensions. Start with the absolute basics of 2v1 tactics and go from there. Horizontal bracket is a good place to start. Simple, yet works like a charm. Work on your comms. Transmit as much info as you can with as few words as you can. Practice BRAA calls on spotted bandits. There are a bunch of irl documents about brevity and such, just need to look for it.

Edited January 31, 2014 by <Blaze>

[blkspade]

On your advice for the "Russian Driver" you should probably point out that your more or less referring to the Mig-29S here, as it is the only Russian flyable with active missiles. As an Eagle driver myself, I tend to giggle a bit when I see a solo flanker above Angels 25.

 

Tactics are going to vary depending on what your flying and flying against. Ambush tactics are really the best approach with the Russian jets against the Eagle. In a 1v1 scenario most eagle drivers won't allow you the advantage of being higher and faster in a Russian jet if your spotted outside of engagement range.

[TAW_Blaze]

Well it's situational but if you're going 1v1 and aren't much worried about the environment you rather want to be high above flat terrain. If you stay low you just hand him the advantage, he'll find you anyway. Everything else that you'd gain by staying low can still be in your hands starting high if you know how to do them. Combined ER-ET launches at high altitude are pretty tough to beat.

[blkspade]

The ER-ET combo kinda works, until you're flying against eagle drivers that always expect it from the flankers. The ET is really easy to beat at range when you can see/expect it coming. You'll already have 120s coming at you well before you can effectively employ the ET. Between NCTR and TEWS the eagle driver will absolutely what he's flying against. In the Russian birds you have to more or less extrapolate what you're enemy might be flying. Though with some servers having eagles on one side it might be easier to assume you're facing an eagle if you're on red. That actually increases the likelihood of the ER-ET combo working in favor of blue flankers to a greater extent as the red pilots might not think to use flares as much. They don't need them fighting eagles outside of 3nm.

 

The other rationale behind the low flying Russians is the fact that the radar missiles don't track well at really low altitudes and the air density drag. It sometimes creates problems achieving /maintaining TWS lock. Along with notching it ends up forcing the Eagle to close within a range where the ET is going to have a higher Pk. If you can evade 120s at altitude without breaking your lock then yeah being higher will work just fine. What you get more often than not is mutually killed. Against me personally you are more likely to kill me with an ET alone than firing both. Still completely dependent on me not seeing you in the first place.

[Exorcet]

On your advice for the "Russian Driver" you should probably point out that your more or less referring to the Mig-29S here, as it is the only Russian flyable with active missiles. As an Eagle driver myself, I tend to giggle a bit when I see a solo flanker above Angels 25.

 

I've gone against F-15's at 20+ with the Flanker solo. I probably owe some of my success to missiles being as they are currently, which is short legged, but basically, you can pretty much get into effective ET range from anywhere and once you do, things get a lot more even. Outside of ET range, the AIM-120 performs rather poorly itself.

 

Tactics are going to vary depending on what your flying and flying against. Ambush tactics are really the best approach with the Russian jets against the Eagle. In a 1v1 scenario most eagle drivers won't allow you the advantage of being higher and faster in a Russian jet if your spotted outside of engagement range.

I do agree that the F-15 does have more advantages when it comes to long range positioning.

 

As for the original question, I fly the F-15 mostly. I usually cruise around at 30,000-35,000 feet while my entire team yells at me for contrailing. I don't find it much of a concern, especially without AWACS since your radar is going to give you away anyway. It doesn't take long to dive below 26,250 ft either. From that altitude, far away from where I expect to find opposing aircraft, I'll scan with the radar set to display 80 nm. I scan below my altitude, at my altitude, and then above and also alternate between HI and HI-MED PRF and narrow/full azimuth.

 

If I do find something, I'll fly toward it maintaining 30-35 kft altitude at 500 KTAS or more. From here it varies a bit, I sometimes fire long range shots in TWS hoping to catch someone off guard. If they're flying in a zig zag pattern or down low, this will never work. Usually I try to wait until 15 nm to fire, before then I will beam and crank to defend from incoming missiles and also try to make the other guy think I've fired a missile. After this point it's all about managing energy and SA better than the other guy.

[TAW_Blaze]

Contrailing is problematic if you fly in an area where people can ambush you. You just wave at them saying come and kill me. Combined with the right habits, it won't really matter though, but I wouldn't recommend anyone new to do this.

 

Agree with spade here, problem is that I don't really fight a russian bird up high more than once in a blue moon so it's kinda difficult to get experience in that area.

[blkspade]

I've gone against F-15's at 20+ with the Flanker solo. I probably owe some of my success to missiles being as they are currently, which is short legged, but basically, you can pretty much get into effective ET range from anywhere and once you do, things get a lot more even. Outside of ET range, the AIM-120 performs rather poorly itself.

 

I wasn't saying its impossible, just that it really isn't ideal. When it works its a matter of skill, luck, and exploit. I occasionally get guns and AIM-9 kills on MiGs and Flankers, but the process to get there is not what I should be doing in an F-15. The AIM-120 performs better against higher flying targets and even more so with a higher rate of closure. The F-15 can completely negate any possibility of a long range ET shot by simply not being in afterburner. So you'd be stacking the chips in the Eagle's favor flying higher. However an Eagle is all-in inside of 8nm of the Russian jets. Radar missiles are still able to be evaded at that range, but it requires prayer and divine intervention to escape an ET there.

Edited January 31, 2014 by blkspade

[karambiatos]

I wasn't saying its impossible, just that it really isn't ideal. When it works its a matter of skill, luck, and exploit. I occasionally get guns and AIM-9 kills on MiGs and Flankers, but the process to get there is not what I should be doing in an F-15. The AIM-120 performs better against higher flying targets and even more so with a higher rate of closure. The F-15 can completely negate any possibility of a long range ET shot by simply not being in afterburner. So you'd be stacking the chips in the Eagle's favor flying higher. However an Eagle is all-in inside of 8nm of the Russian jets. Radar missiles are still able to be evaded at that range, but it requires prayer and divine intervention to escape an ET there.

 

if you see an ET or 73 coming you can dodge them at any aspect at any range, even when afterburning you can still dodge them, its quite ridiculous.

[blkspade]

Contrailing is problematic if you fly in an area where people can ambush you. You just wave at them saying come and kill me. Combined with the right habits, it won't really matter though, but I wouldn't recommend anyone new to do this.

 

Agree with spade here, problem is that I don't really fight a russian bird up high more than once in a blue moon so it's kinda difficult to get experience in that area.

 

When I see that high flanker they are one of two types of pilot. The new flanker driver that doesn't know any better and will keep making that same approach after each death, or the skilled one that absolutely knows better and is deciding to be bold that day. Also that skilled guy is likely to just be a decoy so his wingman can ET you from below.

[blkspade]

if you see an ET or 73 coming you can dodge them at any aspect at any range, even when afterburning you can still dodge them, its quite ridiculous.

 

The power of prayer!! Seriously though if spot the launch you can tell if its guiding to you pretty quickly. Ideally you want flares out AB off so it doesn't even starts to guide. I've stared at numerous ETs/73s that will not bite on the flares despite my hardest efforts. Now you can defeat them with high-speed maneuvering instead, but in my experience its one or the other. The most effective approach for one largely negates the other, and relying on being able to out maneuver the missile is really prayer at work. There is also the possibility of misuse. I can get a shoot cue with an AIM-9 at 9nm+ head on if the target is in AB. It will hit only if the target does absolutely nothing to evade. Now the AIM-9 launch is basically invisible to the bandit at that range if they aren't zoomed way in, but I would expect them to maneuver in response to my maneuver post launch anyway. I don't fly the Russian jets, but does it lack the symbology to tell you that you're at RMax for IR missiles? I feel a lot of the time I'm tempted to fire an Aim-9 too early solely because the sensor is tracking the target.

[Exorcet]

Contrailing is problematic if you fly in an area where people can ambush you.

That's the thing. It seems online many people think contrailing must be avoided at all costs (or it seems so to me). If it's going to hinder me, of course I won't do it, but a lot of the time, diving below contrail level probably won't help you much. I would say that contrails are more important in cases where you're flying in a group or where you're getting into WVR range.

 

Up at 30,000 feet, I'll either outlast people on fuel or just dive and gain the upper hand on them energy wise. Hopefully when AFM missiles are complete and have advanced guidance, I might also get a range advantage on them.

 

I wouldn't recommend anyone new to do this.

To be honest, taking off and dying repeatedly is probably good for new pilots as long as they don't get frustrated. When a server feels particularly "air quakey" I sometimes fly suicidally just to see what happens. On occasion I learn something new.

 

Agree with spade here, problem is that I don't really fight a russian bird up high more than once in a blue moon so it's kinda difficult to get experience in that area.

I don't fly them much either. Strange thing is I do better flying the Su-27 like a F-15 than when I try to imitate the Su-27 pilots.

 

I wasn't saying its impossible, just that it really isn't ideal. When it works its a matter of skill, luck, and exploit. I occasionally get guns and AIM-9 kills on MiGs and Flankers, but the process to get there is not what I should be doing in an F-15. The AIM-120 performs better against higher flying targets and even more so with a higher rate of closure. The F-15 can completely negate any possibility of a long range ET shot by simply not being in afterburner. So you'd be stacking the chips in the Eagle's favor flying higher. However an Eagle is all-in inside of 8nm of the Russian jets. Radar missiles are still able to be evaded at that range, but it requires prayer and divine intervention to escape an ET there.

 

The goal isn't long range ET, it's getting close enough for the ET to be able to track all the way to the target and having energy to boot. It doesn't feel much different to me than engaging with AIM-120 since the AMRAAM is broken beyond 15 miles and in the 10-15 mile range is underwhelming.

 

I guess maybe I should say my experience is more 1.2.4 or .5 than recent, I just got back into DCS after a bit of a break. The AMRAAM didn't feel very good yesterday though.

[TAW_Blaze]

That's the thing. It seems online many people think contrailing must be avoided at all costs (or it seems so to me). If it's going to hinder me, of course I won't do it, but a lot of the time, diving below contrail level probably won't help you much. I would say that contrails are more important in cases where you're flying in a group or where you're getting into WVR range.

 

Up at 30,000 feet, I'll either outlast people on fuel or just dive and gain the upper hand on them energy wise. Hopefully when AFM missiles are complete and have advanced guidance, I might also get a range advantage on them.

 

Yes, it's always a debate if you can afford to be seen or not. I mean literally advertising my position with a huge billboard. If I can afford to, then I'll go for it because the gain in that particular fight is huge. But normally I prefer to avoid trails.

 

To be honest, taking off and dying repeatedly is probably good for new pilots as long as they don't get frustrated. When a server feels particularly "air quakey" I sometimes fly suicidally just to see what happens. On occasion I learn something new.

 

This is how I got most of my knowledge about air combat.

[Frostie]

Contrails are always dangerous in a public server, you never know who is lurking around. I've killed enough contrailing experienced F-15 pilots to know, especially when they're just leaving the comfort of their home plate by using silent ET's from 50,000ft. Contrails equals a visual cue to anyone and is especially dangerous against notching bandits which you happen to fly over, seen it, done it and had it done to me enough times to realise how much effect this FC fixed altitude anomaly has.

[Pilotasso]

funnily enough, flying at 25500 feet and occasionally climbing further to produce contrail attracts mesmerized enemies into missile parameters when otherwise they would duck and cover from radar detection.

[RIPTIDE]

funnily enough, flying at 25500 feet and occasionally climbing further to produce contrail attracts mesmerized enemies into missile parameters when otherwise they would duck and cover from radar detection.

Human psychology. They fixate. ;)

[Exorcet]

Contrails are always dangerous in a public server, you never know who is lurking around.

That works both ways. Quite often I do everything to get the attention of an opposing fighter that looks like it's going to stumble on an ally. Early on I tried to give a warning, but that would sometimes mean I can't control my plane (unless I knew who the ally was and knew this person was on TS or something) and most of the time in a public server, I don't know who is who anyway. If I do grab their attention, it could put them in a very bad spot because of the friendly fighter I'm protecting, and having them come at me gives me a little more leeway in trying to send out a warning.

 

The other case is just drawing everyone's attention, especially if I also see friendlies on the radar and not necessarily going for the kill myself.

 

 

I've killed enough contrailing experienced F-15 pilots to know, especially when they're just leaving the comfort of their home plate by using silent ET's from 50,000ft.

I guess this depends on how well the base is defended/how many players there are. I make a habit of looking up. I also try to look vulnerable. If I think someone is watching my contrails I'll make them look non threatening. Fly straight and level even though my radar is focused on them. Extremely high flying is usually a bad idea you're 100% you're not going to be seen.

 

Contrails equals a visual cue to anyone and is especially dangerous against notching bandits which you happen to fly over, seen it, done it and had it done to me enough times to realise how much effect this FC fixed altitude anomaly has.

 

All agreed. I await variable contrails, would change things up quite a bit.

 

funnily enough, flying at 25500 feet and occasionally climbing further to produce contrail attracts mesmerized enemies into missile parameters when otherwise they would duck and cover from radar detection.

This is basically what I was referring to. I think there are a lot of dimensions to the whole contrail issue. I certainly wouldn't put 26250-39500 ft off limits by default.

[Pilotasso]

Helps to break the deadlock on some occasions where people are unwilling to come forward and stay on the weeds down low in the hopes of jumping on unsuspecting stragglers. On a more open multidirectional confrontation is best to keep 25500 and below.

[Pilotasso]

The AMRAAM didn't feel very good yesterday though.

 

All radar missiles, not just the AMRAAM, seem to be "enjoying" a kill ratio in the vicinity of 0%, making IR weapons the dominant ordnance of the moment. Right now I am distracting targets by making them evade AMRAAM's while I bring them into the envelope of my sidewinders.

[TAW_Blaze]

My slammers seem to do fine, but then again I have no idea what they used to be before. It has to be noted that I prefer to fire at close-medium ranges. Although I do have my wtf moments too, when a rear 2-3nm slammer starts flying in a zigzag against a nonmaneuvering target..

[winchesterdelta1]

AMRAAM now only works against unexperienced pilots and AI that barely do any evasive maneuvres. You won't hit any experienced pilot if you shoot outside the 15 miles and most of the time you even mis them below 15 miles.

When playing online i shoot 1 AMRAAM around 14 miles to let them go defensive and for all the other AMRAAM shot's i try to get close to 8.5 miles to get a 90% hit chance.

I even had a cople times that i was chasing a bandit Mig-29 only 3.4 miles distance wasting all my AMRAAM's. I was flying 700 miles and had altitude advantage. That Mig-29 didn't even had to chaff.

I barely shoot at targets that are running away from me unless i want to force them into defensive.. But this one was so close i tought it would be a certain kill. But my Mach 3 Amraam could not even reach him. I call BS.

[ralfidude]

120s are still a joke and need work.

 

In anycase, I don't really fly the flankers much, but I have noticed and seen that the goddamn missiles fired at relatively low altitude tend to lose track for no reason.

 

Are the ERs just THAT bad at tracking a target? I was told that backscatter in the background causes the missiles to lose lock and you are better off firing from down low UP on your target.

 

 

 

Reference this little part in the video at 6:25 where it's not even a nose down aspect, and the ER just doesn't even bother:

 

 

 

But at 2:20 it tracks JUST FINE in a pretty nose down scenario...

[*Rage*]

On your advice for the "Russian Driver" you should probably point out that your more or less referring to the Mig-29S here, as it is the only Russian flyable with active missiles. As an Eagle driver myself, I tend to giggle a bit when I see a solo flanker above Angels 25.

 

Tactics are going to vary depending on what your flying and flying against. Ambush tactics are really the best approach with the Russian jets against the Eagle. In a 1v1 scenario most eagle drivers won't allow you the advantage of being higher and faster in a Russian jet if your spotted outside of engagement range.

 

I've got alot of kills against F15s by flying very high and fast. You just need to know what you're doing and manuever aggresively.

[*Rage*]

120s are still a joke and need work.

 

In anycase, I don't really fly the flankers much, but I have noticed and seen that the goddamn missiles fired at relatively low altitude tend to lose track for no reason.

 

Are the ERs just THAT bad at tracking a target? I was told that backscatter in the background causes the missiles to lose lock and you are better off firing from down low UP on your target.

 

 

 

Reference this little part in the video at 6:25 where it's not even a nose down aspect, and the ER just doesn't even bother:

 

 

 

But at 2:20 it tracks JUST FINE in a pretty nose down scenario...

 

The ERs track awefully currently.

[theGozr]

Humm not flying those.. need AFM first ;)