tavarish palkovnik

@FWind you are THE KING of universe If you would be near I would hug you so hard to extract life of you I can’t see full document, it is locked for download, can you email me full text, it would be highly appreciated? This is great, this is monumental!!!! Thanks mate a lot

Both those documents giving reference connection to Mk47 are good and helpful, however and after all, they only confirm that grain is with some kind of slots and that slots are with some kind of insulation. Of course, with general lack of any concrete data about geometry, even this is monumental. But still, slotted grain configuration as general term is hugely wide. Can be slotted tube, kind of finocyl, can be slotted cylinder in full length, kind of keyhole form, with one or more slots etc etc. Momentarily data for Mk60 are the most concrete and detailed in description, 5000-1000 lbf, 20-30 sec, max. pressure 1000 psi, plus with known nozzle geometry what is very important. And no matter to all what can be read on internet, I believe Mk47 and Mk60 are very similar, in output numbers perhaps almost same because both had same task to fulfill, same requirements. Internally I don’t know, except that there is no much alternatives to get these numbers so perhaps even internally they are similar. First guided flight in demonstration test of Phoenix missile was long time ago, it was May of 1966, so motors, in concept form, should be and looking for in that time of 60’s. It was time of lot of extravagant designs and I wouldn’t be surprised, when and if we finally get answer, to see something very strange for today’s norms. This last variant I gave is such, not common for today, but Aerojet designed similar in 60’s, it was in use, and with accommodated number of slots it is easy to get numbers given to Mk60. It has slots, it has insulated slots and it gives output numbers easily.

Since I can't add any attachment here, this is link to forum where I usually write and in last post is latest vision how Mk60 could looks like, if someone finds it interesting Vanjskobalistički proračun (program) leta rakete (mycity-military.com)

In addition maximal velocity, for example AIM-54C, they said is 5573 ft/s or 1699 m/s. Speed of sound at sea level is 340,28 m/s…1699/340,28=4,99 M (5M) AIM-54A … 5990 ft/s ; 1826 m/s ; 5,36 M … but what else is also in equation for real case Marketing is miracle but also one big horse’s drop… or bull’s

Data about total impulse from blurred table above: AIM-7F…36073 lbs AIM-7M…31000 lbs AIM-9L…13912 lbs AIM-9M…13912 lbs AIM-54A…97120 lbs AIM-54C…97120 lbs 97120 lbs/ 375lb =Isp 259s … insane for real output of this motor at sea level (although in many occasions called that way!) . But there had to be a trick and there it is indeed…all these numbers are converted figures to universal case chamber pressure 1000 psi (69 bar), full expansion to 14,7 psi (1 bar) and nozzle half angle 15deg. In past I haven’t put my nose too much in motors of USA origin and must say this is quite surprising to me, this method of classification. Honestly I don’t understand why they did (do) it that way when these numbers for most of motors don’t give real picture. All right, figures look nice but that’s all, perhaps old methods used by engineers marketing managers recognized as good stuff

Take a look on indicator down right, obviously «27ЭР»

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Limit for personal cumulative attachments !? First time I hear for something like this on forums So, to delete previous ones to put new one Good old paper form books and brain memory, that is what will survive internet apocalypse

Why is limit only miserable 16,88 kB for attachment ? I have some very interesting tables to show ... and this is how it looks, what is point of this

That's right, process of fabrication is such that liners remain only on the sides of slots, inside are molding matrixes which after fuel is cured are taken away. However, all this has to be taken ultimate. If such star configuration (6-point star and half of star points inhibited) would be inside of this motor, in full length of grain, it would give nothing close to what is expected. This would result, becuase of big initial burning surface, with very high pressure and thrust respectively, and relatively short burning time. This text and connecting wedge star principle with Mk47 motor is I believe just to explain wedges itself, or what I want to say, yes most likely slots are done that way but slots are not all the way long through to grain, but like earlier said, grain should be slotted tube configuration, or if someone likes, tube with star portion. And again we are back to what is reality. I was writing about Neva motor (SAM-3) and more and more all this becomes closer and closer. And this most likely will be just one more motor which will have in many details opponent on other side, you would be surprised how many details in Aerojet's motors you can find on other side. This motor on cross section, in perhaps final configuration where it got CTPB based propellant (151kg) was giving 34000-35600 kgs in 15,3-24 seconds

Clear now after read complete text…exposed area were nearly same for these samples, conventional star cylinder (Fig C-11) and inhibited wedge star (Fig C-12) “Star point” for inhibited wedge star…conventional star point plus extension till motor case wall is star point for inhibited wedge star…half of it etc etc Interesting indeed

@FWind This is great stuff, thanks a lot man ! English is not my native language so if you guys can help me to understand what author actually wanted to say ... ''The outside half of these start points'' with accent to word HALF. What half is meaning? Half of 6 is 3 and if only, let's say in immaginary grain with 6 points star, 3 extended points will be inhibited it gives nothing good. If all 6 extended poits will be inhibited in half of it radial length it also gives nothing good. Or ''half'' means half of longitudinal length of points extendings will be inhibited...something like this -> If author ment on this half than with variations of star configuration, for example with shorter star arms like this it becomes actually nothing much different to what slotted tube is and what is expected to be in some of forms in both of these two motors

So like said, think that I managed to get to what is given for Mk60 Mod.0 motor and why not to share it here I used this grain configuration, slotted tube, only with mutually dislocated slots to have this part with slots in participation all the time. Also I took and used data of slow burning USA propellant type RDS-501, common for that time and got this -> It is very much on the trail of numbers given to Mk60 Mod.0, 20-30 seconds and average thrust values 5000-1000 lbf (22241-4448 N). Pressure is also on the trail, they said maximal is 1000 psi (69 bar) I got very close This motor sucks down there at sea level as it supposes to do with nozzle like it is, however up there it gives what should give. If I would create this motor for purpose of this game, this is what I would do. So I would make it as linear function from 23000 N to 4500 N of thrust during 25 seconds. It makes total impulse of 343750 Ns or average 13750 N or average specific impulse of 206,1 s. That is for sea level. To get numbers for altitudes, first with this motor principle of 7% should be forgotten because it sucks here. Actually any kind of single valued percentage for increasing should be avoided becuase it will give false result for this case. Here I would use instead of percentages increasing with adding extra force and for 10km it would be extra 3000 N in each second, all that can be explained of course. Now it is from 26000 to 7500 N, total impulse of 418750 Ns and average Isp 251,1 s. And I would use function F f(t) instead of making it as continuous average thrust of 16750 N because these two inputs give sometimes very much different outputs. Yes, total impulse is the same but... This is some hypothetical ballistical shot from 10km at 1,5M with elevation of 20 deg where ''red'' is continuous 16750 N thrust. And this is hypothetical horizontal flight at 10km with kinematic overload In any case, function or continuous average thrust can go depending of desire for precision but with changing of thrust values with altitues, with this and similar motors, extra care should be taken

@GGTharos You were right about these motors! By the way, think I figured out numbers given behind Mk60. If this motor is like Mk47 with slotted tube grain, what is most likely, and if I take what was in front of nose all the time and just make reverse calculations, numbers given to Mk60 become very obvious. If it looks like a duck, if it swims like a duck, if it sounds like a duck…then it is the most probably a duck

Just to correct myself, it is not topic but as I wrote it here it would be good to make correction on same address Seems AIM-7E and AIM-7E-2 in respect of motors are equal, also seems that all types Mk38 Mod.0, 1 and 2 ; Mk38 Mod.3 and 4 and Mk52 Mod.1 and 2 although with different approaches, propellant type, grain formation, chamber pressure, nozzle sizes etc give nearly same result in term of thrust, total impulse and burning time. Meaning all these motors are about 3 seconds of 31,5 kN

It would be my pleasure and honor if these stuffs would be taken in consideration and if I could give some contribution to get this motor in more realistic form, for all you guys that like this rocket as I do. Team that makes model of this motor for ED is always welcome to contact me and I will very gladly share what I have behind all these steps in finding answers how it actually works

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Just to add it here to be on same place, in addition to Mk38 Mod.0 and Mk38 Mod.4 this is Mk52 of some Mod which corresponds to Mk38 Mod.3 and/or Mod.4, 5-points star channel burning And this is Mk65 which is Aerojet's alternative to Mk58 of Hercules This is of course Mk58 With these 5 cross cuts AIM-7E, AIM-7E2 and AIM-7F are covered

That would be so nice if possible. In literature author gave every possible grain formation, finocyl as well, so I guess when citing is done exactly in text about slotted tubes that should be very valid evidence that Mk47 and perhaps Mk60 as well are really in that form. And that makes job much easier, burning of such formation is quite easy to program and of course all other formations are excluded from further considerations. This form of grain will never give classic booster stage, for example few seconds of continuous or nearly continuous thrust then transition to sustaining phase, like finocyl gives. Four slots in some 1/3 of total length will result with slightly regressive burning, but such output thrust numbers can't be connected to nothing we have till now (except that it could be not for sea level). However six slots in same 1/3 length gives some numbers close to what we have about Mk60 Mod.0, in mean of thrust and chamber pressure. Pressure and burning surface plus thrust at 0 and 10km This although looks quite awkward, in same time looks realistic as well

New findings about Mk47 Mod 0 So it is tube with slots after all, it has sense although it can't be recognized on that cross cut photo That is something like this, and of course to have final answer how this motor works (in single or dual mode) number, position and dimensions of slots have to be determinated. Four slots will give nearly continuous burning surface while 6 for example will give booster phase (or better to say a bit regressive process). Photo of cross cut model in better resolution would give all what is needed