capttrob

The Su-25T is more slippery with speed brakes, gear and flaps extended, 10 pylons hanging off the wings side by side, and square fuse than an F-15C with its speed brake extended only. The F-15C single spoiler speed brake alone is significantly more effective than gear, flaps, and four air grabber speed brakes combined on a Su-25T weighing almost 8000 lbs less.... in this game... you decide.... That is all... :music_whistling:

Drag test. Same mission as other tracks. Route - straight ahead in a controlled descent. Su-25T Start Airspeed - 430 End airspeed - 450 Configuration - Flaps, Gear, Speed brakes deployed at start of mission Vertical speed - 20m/s descent (4000 fpm) till ground crash. Power - Idle Weight - 33,700 F-15C Start Airspeed - 255 End Airspeed - 195 Configuration - Speed brake deployed at start of mission Vertical speed - 4000 fpm descent till ground crash. Power - Idle Weight - 41,652 Tracks are saved if anyone wants to see.... :v:

I know... what a mistake that was.. huh? Wont happen again.. promise...:thumbup:

Shep, The -15C decellerates in a 6000 fpm descent with only speed brake deployed. The 25T accelerates in a 4000 fpm descent with gear, flaps, and 4 "air grabber" speed brakes deployed at a lower weight. I think something is wrong. You guys disagree. Its cool... lets move on... You guys fly the 25T whenever you like. I choose not to fly it... ok? :thumbup: No hard feelings... group hug.... :D edit: PS Brit, i decided against sending you my resume... sorry bud... maybe next time ;)

lol... who cares.... enjoy your 25T :thumbup:

Hey Shep... good to see you back.... I'll keep this brief. The 25T accelerated in a 4000 fpm descent with gear, flaps and speed brake "air grabbers" out at idle thrust, square fuse, numerous pylons and a lower weight than the F-15C and squaring the turn to final. The heavier -15C decellerated when i "dove" for the ground at almost 6000 fpm with the speed brake out. Thats it.... :smilewink: I also disagree that the 15 speed brake is "much" larger than the 4 plates combined which make up the speed brakes on the 25T. Not to mention the 25T essentially has 8 plates for speed brake when you include those intrusive "air grabbers" that the 15 does not have. I would almost put a bet that the 25T speed brakes combined amount to a larger surface area sticking out in the breeze than the solo 15 brake. I would also bet that the 25T "air grabber" speed brake design creates more drag than the 15 spoiler design. But, i could be wrong.. .and i dont intend to research it... ;) Lets keep this simple shall we? Basically, you guys are telling me the Frog has a more slippery design in the landing config with 4 speed brake air grabbers at a lower weight than a swept wing F-15C in the clean config with a spoiler design speed brake deployed... got it.... lol.. thanks for clearing it up or me... ok.. .so it wasnt so brief.... ;)

britgliderpilot, I'd prefer not to bust out my resume in this thread, however, if you really need to know, feel free to pm me and i'll send you a copy. If you need to know each jet i have flown, i guess i can scan my logbook and send you pics. But, i wont.. ;) I said it before and i'll say it again. The F-15C is a non-event in my mission in the clean config. The 25T flys like a slick platform with "air grabber" speed brakes in the landing config. It doesnt seem accurate to me. What you do with my opinion is up to you. It almost seems like you are offended that im stating a negative opinion on the 25T. Is this your favorite airplane or something? Did you contribute to the design? I dont mean to offend anyone.... so my apologies if i have done so....:D I am stating my opinion based on experience. My experience tells me that the 25T is a poor design and something is wrong. You dont have to agree, and you certainly dont have to pass judgement.

I believe i stated more than once i am by no means an expert on these models. However, with that said... i agree one of us here "missed something" (as you stated)... perhaps it had something to do with stating opinion without even watching the evidence? Hmmmm... let me see.. who was that? Well.. it couldnt be me.. considering i made the tracks....:thumbup: Im not saying im 100% right. However, in my experience flying jets with speed brakes, comparing a dirty 25T to a clean -15 at a higher weight in LockOn... "something" is wrong (as i have said before). What is wrong? I have no idea.... Do i care? Not a bit. I have already over extended my stay in this thread.... ;) Lets try to keep it civil... whaddayasay?

The above quote says it all......... I had typed out a rebuttal. But, you know what? I just erased it. If you feel the 25T is accurate, by all means, fly your heart out.... :thumbup: Cocky? absolutely. That is my intention... in a humorous way..... If it offends anyone, let me know, i'll tone it down a bit.... :) edit: Why, oh why, did i even start this thread..... what a waste of time.... lol :) Lets just put it this way... I put a retired Marine, 18,000 hour buddy of mine.. .close to retirement part 121... flying LockOn. He was fed up within 15 mins and wanted nothing to do with it....lol. However, i enjoy the game.

lol :pilotfly: Thanks for your input diveplane.. :)

Everything above is completely false. Sorry Blade... ;) You want a good explaination chris? Go here.... http://forums.flightinfo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13 and ask the same question in the same humble manner. Hope you find what you're looking for.....

Another sad day in aviation. I just saw this news on another website. My Russian friends will be in my prayers. Godspeed to pax and crew!

Sounds like a blast (no pun intended). :smilewink: Also... any chance for a gunzo only mission within the rotation? Being that Solo-Elite has a tourney coming up, it would be fun to have a gunzo mission on a good fps, lag free server. Perhaps Sochi-Suhkumi (or maykop) guns only mission? I have played a few servers gunzo, but the lag was so bad it was impossible to target. I bet 504 Server could host a fun 2 hour gunzo mission in their rotation. Anyone interested?

I know i bitch at 504 to add more time for their big maps. However, you bring up a good point with your above quote. I didnt really think about it before you brought it up, but now i realize the frequent map rotation on the 504 Server. With that said, players should constantly remind themselves that this is a game! If someone is spam-ramming you and you dont like it, by all means.. switch servers. If you see it as a challenge, by all means, develope tactics. If you see 4 bandits chasing a teammate that is RTB, you can choose to run or engage. But always remember, this is a game, entertainment, something to enjoy, have fun!. I choose to engage.... yet i dont fault anyone if those 4 bandits spam me with their missles. I expect it (ie. prepare for the worst, hope for the best). They hold a certain amount of missles. So, therefore, they may launch one after another till they run out. Its their choice, and its up to me to anticipate. If i get killed, i get a new plane. :yes: However, i will announce my biggest pet peeve for online play... Sam Huggers! I understand if a team and/or player may be out numbered and wants to stay close to their Sam batteries... but if the teams are somewhat even and you are hugging your sams, you are taking this game way too seriously...:pilotfly: I've noticed i have zero respect for Sam huggers if teams are somewhat even. Not that my respect means anything..... :v:

All i know is that the F-15C in this game flys this mission as a normal slam dunk in a jet with speed brakes. The 25T flys this mission as an SR-71 or Space Shuttle (exaggeration note.. :megalol: ). If you believe the 25T should not slow down as rapidly as an F-15C despite added drag and lower weight on the 25T, more power to ya....:thumbup: You wont find me flying the thing unless i join a server where i am able to even the teams by flying a 25T. Bottom line, i hate to break it to you die-hard simmers, but there is a serious problem with the 25T and/or the -15C. Shep will tell ya after he see's my 15 track for the same mission.

You know how many missles he has... He won.. you lost. Suck it up. There arent any rules that say how fast or slow you should launch your missles. If you cannot dodge 8 missles coming at you in rapid succussion,,, i got news for you.. you are the noob... ;) Online pilots (and military pilots) will use any means necessary to get a kill... and so will you. Deal with it.... Not trying to flame here... :D

I see you edited you post while i was responding. Do you know what an American CO would say? "Thanks for getting that Mi-24" (I suppose in the old USSR, the pilot would be shot for using too many missles... lol ;) ). Think the Mi-24 driver is thinking, "What a noob.. he used all his missles on me."... Not likely... know why? The Mi-24 driver is dead, and the -15 driver removed the threat while returning to base and sleeping in a warm bed that night. Who do you want to be? I suppose you'd rather be dead in the Mi-24 just so you could be thinking "What a noob that 15 driver was" in your after-life...lol... but hey...you may be dead from a noob spam-raaming you.. but you got your pride.. right? :thumbup: :v:

Sounds like a scenario that can be easily dodged since they are all in "quick succession". Not to mention your enemy is now out of missles. Easy prey imo. Regardless, newbies will always be coming into this community. Instead of flaming him for "spamraam-ing you", how about asking if he needs help understanding the program? Sure, you may get a 13 yr old sarcastic remark as a reply... but, heres a little well known secret, LockOn is a game where anyone on the face of the Earth has access. Try not to get too upset when noobs blast all their missles in your direction and learn how to use it to your adantage. If you were flying a Su-25 in real life, and an F-15 launched 8 AMRAAM's at you in quick succession, will you send that pilot a letter calling him a noob after he shot you down? Pllain and simple, you got shot down within the rules, by a noob.. and you dont like it. Deal with it and adapt. It can be used to your advantage.... :v:

I dont know too much about the 25T (except that its a slippery design ;)). But i've shot down a few russian fighters with an A-10 online after they tracked me down. No such thing as a sitting duck imo. :D

I agree with you (especially if its done in an A-10). However, this was not my point. I have seen pilots orbit over an enemy base ater SEAD was carried out, waiting for others to join (considering the map doesnt show destroyed ground units when you join), only to be surprised with a lobby view while trying to start your engines.wondering WTF just happened. The pilots orbiting a suppressed enemy base waiting for new-comers to spawn on the ramp, only to blast them as they close their canopy... are "gaming" cowards imo. Which is lower than a real life coward. I enjoy the 44th server because you have to hunt for SEAD. Unlike other servers where you can take a screenshot of the map (or post it on this forum ...:music_whistling: ) revealing enemy locations. Either way, its a game that is most enjoyable playing against others. There is no point to spawn on a ramp only to be blasted as you close your canopy. Servers say vulching is allowed because "This is War", yet you get ridiculed if you shoot down the opposition with a maddog on some servers. lol... i dont get it.... :v: edit: Its also hilarious when some pilots throw flames because the pilot that shot him down "used too many missles". I love to respond (even if it wasnt directed at me), "Stand still next time and your opponent will only use one missle."....... silence on the freq.... ;)

Crusty, you are so confused on airfoil design, it is the reason i made the humorous remark of going back to sleep. Its a good thing that is your last post. However, if you do choose to post again, please familiarize with A,B,C and D (and even E) category approach mins and why they are different before you post. Also, as britgliderpilot pointed out, refresh your academics with respect to NACA airfoil design, Cl vs. Cd, and the effect speed has on induced drag. Hopefully you'll be able to see a pattern. After you get done with that, you may want to reresh your memory with respect to Mcrit numbers and the difference between swept vs. straight wing. Take particular note to the Cd and where it spikes on different wing design. After you find the spike and see the relation, follow it back to see which NACA airfoil design has more drag at lower speeds. Then, when you are done with all that, study some Vg diagrams and L/D max charts with diferent wing designs. If you initially studied approach speed category.. it will all come together.... Let me know i you need some links to NACA tutorials.... ;) edit: No flames... just facts. :v:

Thanks for your reply Yo-yo.. and although i love Pulp Fiction, hitman had the ultimate signature, "Its the one that say Bad Motha-fuka...". You may want to try going with, "Zed is dead baby... " ;) I admire your input as far as formulas.... however.... (ready for this?) :smartass: Its the old cliche of scientist vs. monkey. You are the scientist, and it looks great on paper. I am the monkey with thousands of hours in actual jets. Combined with tens of thousands of hours watching airplanes. Now its been a while since i studied under my aeronautical degree (im kind of partial to (rhoV^2)/2), but, i've been flying airplanes for a very long time. If this 25T design in LockOn is accurate as endorsed by real 25T pilots, i actually feel for them if they have to fly it. I'd also like to know when their last currency on type was performed. If the F-15C in this game is any relection of the real thing, im starting to doubt american technology (although Sept 11 and the Iraq war has created many doubts for me... not that i want to get political.. :D ) My next concern, is why the -15 is a non-event with much less form, parasite and induced drag? Then again, i dont even know why im getting caught up in this since i never fly the 25T to begin with...lol... and now that i have seen its behavior... have no desire to..... :thumbup: The whole reason i even tried to fly the 25T in a crosswind.. is because of this thread.... http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=15805 Of which isnt even a crosswind landing. Edit: Imo, the 25T is a poor design considering the amount of time designing an AFM. My apologies for being blunt, call me Simon... however, the game still rocks... for me..... despite its bugs..... ;)

Wanna know the best defense against vulchers? Find another server....:pilotfly: Personally, i find vulching in this game absolutely cowardly. I joined in a server one day where the opposing team had taken over our field. Every time i restarted on the ramp, i was returned to the lobby due to incoming attacks. So, i hit fly a few more times to see if my opponents (there were several orbiting the field) would actually let me get airborne for a challenge. Not a chance. Instead i was greeted with, "This is the most fun i have had in LockOn" via chat window. Im thinking to myself, this guy has fun hitting targets on the ramp that cant shoot back? lol... ok... i gracefullly replied, "Thanks for the server time" and went to a server that admires gameplay, sportsmanship and challenge. But hey, people need to feel a sense of accomplishment somewhere in their lives...even if its blasting defenseless targets... :thumbup: Edit: By the way, Thats good to hear about 504 server. 504 server is the best server on HL imo. Excellent sportsmanship, maturity and humor. Although, i wouldnt mind seeing shorter missions and/or longer mission times for the larger maps. Keep up the good work! IA also has a great bunch of guys to fly with or against.... Always a good time on IA or 504... RAF amd 44th too.... 44th is under-rated imo. Great guys there to fly with. They also take the time to show you the ropes as a newbie... (Thanks again GG!) Best frames per second and lack of lag would have to be IA Dedicated... for me... a close second would be 504, tied with RAf and 44th. Thanks to all of you for making online play enjoyable... :)

Crusty, forgive me for saying this as i dont want to start any flame war.... but... go back to sleep bud... every one of your conclusions are completely opposite of fact.... ;) (beside the fact we arent talking about landing speeds, rather approach speed and the configuration vs. time to achieve). Too many of you are still thinking groundspeed, when we are talking about airspeed. If you choose to believe the 25T has a more efficient aerodynamic profile than the -15C, then you should feel right at home with LockOn. Personally, in all my years of flying jets, there is something definitely wrong. Speed brakes are designed for one of two things... either A. Being vectored for the slam dunk or... B. Screwing up your approach profile because you and your buddy were too busy looking or "gifts" in the cockpit. (Shep and LawnDart know what im talking about) Allow me to retort a bit. A straight wing does have more drag in the landing config than a sweep wing. However, it also produces more lift.... Matter of fact, the straight wing cambered airfoil such as that on the 25T, will produce more drag "and" lift vs. that of the -15. However, the F-15 will out power the 25T. Think flate plate airfoil.... ie. rocket science... ;) the -15 has no problem making that approach, while the 25T acts like the SR-71... imo (needs a chute too... and at less weight than the F-15) Ok... let me see if i can put this into terms the average layman can understand.... Everyone loves Brownies... right? (im talking about the kind you bake and eat... a la Betty Crocker). So far so good... :smilewink: Those of us that make these brownies knows the force needed to stir the mix. (bear with me for a minute) :D Now, some of us use a fork to mix the product, some of us use a spoon. Imagine a model of these pics below were the only tools available for you to stir the mix (instead of a fork or spoon). A small model of each in scale. Lets go a step further and say your grandmother is making the mix. Which model airplane would you give her to stir the brownie mix? Which of the following models would flow through the brownie mix with less effort while still stirring the mix? (keep in mind, take the weapons off the F-15. I couldnt find a picture of an F-15 empty) After you are done answering that question to yourself. Now ask yourself, if the 25T had gear, flaps and speed brake out, while the F-15C had only a speed brake out and no gear or flaps... which would you give to your grandma to stir the brownie mix? (keep in mind, you love your grandma and dont want her to put in more effort than she has to....) Silly scenario? Absolutely. But if you wanted to stir brownies with as little effort as possible. Which model would you use? Personally, i would want to give my grandma the -15C model because it looks like it would be easier to use to stir the brownies. However, if the above models were designed as they are in LockOn, i'd give her the 25T. edit: (excuse me while i make myself another drink....:D .. hiccup... burp...)

:music_whistling: .................. :D ....................:v: