Oberst Zeisig

Maybe some guys nobody wants to fly with so they're missing this experience.

No need to talk at this level.

The clue is what You make of this SA You got left. ;) That's where the fight is won against good pilots.

Well these are simplifycations in the sim, simplifycations also apply to the russian systems there. On the other hand counterpart to the higher technical features in RL are other weaknesses and unreliabilities there we don´t even think of.

It appeared to have great success against radar missiles to go in the notch dive to the ground and pull up right before the deck. It covers several defensive tactics and works against 9 of 10 AIM120C shots down to 8nm from medium alt. This is an appearance from the sim, if its realistic may further updates show.

For me it seems You are talking of rmax. More interesting for me is what happens to the missile energy shot right at rtr and how much energy and maneuvering potential it´s got left then when reaching You after You having done defensive maneuvering. But in fact part of the discussion is about if rtr is modelled right (or even close to right) at all and what are Your options after a rtr shot.

The point is not the drag of the missiles here it´s surely perfect. But how efficient it is in producing lift and how much energy it´s losing by doing so. When can the AIM9 produve 40g before or after it´s bleed out of energy?

You coordinate Your maneuvers to him just referring to Your distance to him (rwr), so its no matter how many missiles he launched, it even doesnt matter if he launched at all (tws shots you don´t know about btw), as air combat is about defeating missiles still on the rails, if it´s no totally wasted shot at 15nm but these are riduculously easy to defeat.

This is a good thread and leads to some fundamental understanding of myself, even if I keep having troubles with my english .... and mental flexibility ;). But I´m beginning to understand the missiles suffers more from denser air when diving then it gains from its potential energy while diving at a certain angle. Like an archer arrow then, which needs aerodynamics only for stability. Also interesting point for understanding and regarding that a missile suffers even more from denser air when turning in it in stead of just lofting due to its much worse aerodynamics which are only built to have little drag and not to produce lift.

Yeah, that's it the SIM is just what You make of it. Don't be upset and search for simple solutions to get a kill, have fun flying and look at things in tacview or maybe single player with labels on just to get a feeling how things are here and what Your options are, then get creative in using them. That's all about how I did it. The whole thing is getting too theoretic for me anyway. Just look at things how they are now, when things change due to a new modelling of missile AFM look at them then and just adapt. I'm looking forward to do so. :)

Agreed! Sure whole thing is complex and that´s just where it starts getting interesting for me to see that guided missiles are not just hitting targets in any case as stated in some handbook tables but just exploting their weaknesses, and what else ist more rewarding than a merge? I will judge my maneuvers according to the distance to You and Your first shot doesnt play any role here, over 10nm its wasted anyway, in fact I dont even notice it as You fire in TWS. On a certain distance I just assume You already fired and the first shot is evaded before appearing on my rwr. Then the dancing starts and its more complex than just pushing and extending. If I cant get out of Your radar cone I will flee and You have a real chance to get me, unless You run into some ET from others. If I can get out of Your radar cone mostly it works with terrain or other bandits needing Your attention I will try to get You. Of all of this I have a good overview on my datalink. If You have good visual orientation and can predict my moves You will most likely get me, but this is f.....ing difficult and I don´t know many guys who can do this and as said often results in a mutual kill due to the excellent SA in russian birds. And that´s just what makes things interesting! This was just the offensive version when I want to be defensive my maneuvering starts before firing ranges and I try to get You that way You never knew I was there. That´s again when this topic gets very emotional. I don´t care which is better amraam or ERs or 77s and I love flying F-15. For me its just interesting to get some portrait about how modern air combat could be. But I mostly sense these Emotions on side of the AMRAAM-lovers. Of course an AMRAAM can be evaded its just the question to which degree, which parameters (distances) this is possible. Maybe they arent correct modeled yet but I too (as Blaze) think they aren´t that far from being correct. And of course It´s understandable to advice in real combat to stay at least 15 nm away. I would do the same if I want to be sure and win or loss depends on a much wider szenario in real and its my own life on the edge and not just some airquaking resulting to a diffrent number on the losses side. Who ever would test out this dancing in between all this spamraaming.

AMRAAM should go mach4+, but im not sure if that applies to low altitude (as 2000m). However an 8nm shot to a fleeing target with full AB takes some time to reach the target even at mach4, enought time that maneuvers let the missile bleed energy but it will still reach You kinematically if you not use another evasion tactic such es notch or ground in addition. A shot at 3.6nm is definetly not evadable You can only hide behind terrain. Look if Your missiles hits the ground then You know its dead. That's how its modeled now any many will say its not realistic. I don't know.

Actually missiles are WIP as You know and maybe when its done and we got the over-AMRAAM there are only F-15 guys flying around. As it ist now I would say You can evade an 120Cs below 10nm, I'd guess under 6nm You need terrain in addition. You can't simply get near to MIG or SU to this distance without high risk, so I think it's the right timed pushing and extending until You get to this firing position without getting too close. The 104th guys can advise You better with this. But its a risky play, if You lose me in doing this and handling Your radar for too long I can get around You and its one out of the 9 of 10 kills I do where the Eagle driver never knew what hit him and missile dynamics dont play a role at all. Sure players like Maverick or Spade are hard to handle with this due to their good trained coordination. But even when they are in a supreme postition I get them sometimes both in a mutual kill. :P

Thanks for the elite pilot ..... face ist going red ....

I wont go head on to 4nm. At that time he goes idle and I see him disappear on EOS I at once switch radar on and give him an ER or 77 shot just to keep him busy. That´s only when the game starts. When I start hiding in notch or terrain he mostly needs to maneuver to find me and runs out of speed very quickly. Then I find him either quick and again the ET goes away or he just tries to extend which I know by the second he disappears an RWR and turn into him immediatly. If he does this seconds too late its ET and game over again.

1st thing is quite difficult when you first notch, then use terrain masking to get around him while you know his position via datalink very well. 2nd then I´m supposed to have wingmen too and then it gets even more theoretic and complex and even much more difficult for the eagles to keep SA with several low/high flying targets which are hiding in diffrent directions all at the same time using the same datalink.

Well, so then when You stay above 10nm and have a bandit with good SA and an eye for his RWR and You make no mistake You survive but You don't get him. ;-)

But here having in mind that any good russian driver knows that any shot above 10nm unless its not from very high alt is playing easy to defeat. A quick notch and the missile ist gone, You also disappear from his radar. At least in the moment its modelled like this in DCS, I dont know either if its realistic. Then You still know where the enemy is and with the very fast acquisition time of EOS the Eagle Driver has a serious Problem when he continues his journey and You turn around and give him an ET-shot and disappear again right away. So it stays this interesting game of positioning Yourself in an advantagous position to the enemy around 7nm, which often leads to a merge. But then be aware of the flanker in the hills :P. Again I dont know if this meets reality, but in the mom. its f... intersting that way. S!

Thought its that way. I´m still a novice, but I´m catching up. :P

Looking forward to it ;). You are almost the only player who mostly reacquires me when I come out of the cover (notch, but esp. terrain), most players can't reacquire lock very fast even when they know roughly roundabout where I am. I sometimes wonder how You do it. ?? And silly question, what signal do You get when fired at in flood mode? Lock warning? I never get killed by AIM7s :P

You got me several times with AIM120, I can remember only one time with AIM7 :P

Has anyone thought of, that this theoretical excellent preformance especially of the AMRAAM "on the paper" doesn't apply when its shot against a capable pilot. Its no 100% pk just because its launched inside 8nm. In DCS there are many excellent pilots who have exploited hundreds und thousands of possible maneuvers against radar missiles including mostly all factors at one time as range, kinetics, notch, countermeasures and terrain. Which pilot can say this in reality. Who ever trained against a real amraam. Most hits in real world are against far inferior enemys who never had the slightest possibility to do anything against it. So my main point ist that the excellent missile perfomance and 100% pk probably mostly stands only on the paper and tables. S!

Yesterday on the 51st .... 20+ Players .... good old airquake .... no single crash. Together with (only what I noticed on 1st view) EOS fixed ..... DL working without dead contacts .... F-15 TWS autolevel on bugged target .... enigne smoke ..... Wingtip vortices. ****ing loved it! Thank You ED for this Christmas present! Now maybe good old times air battles can start again :) :) :)

Don't be too sure ;). And don't underestimate EOS. But were some good fights that day.:cheer3nc: I hope the 51st continues its route with less server crashes. So more people get attrackted to some serious matches.

Did work for You yesterday evening at the 51st as You only got killed once. Guess by whom. ;):harhar: