Hook47

Toxic fanboying? This is a Mirage 2000 Discussion thread, and the discussion turned towards the M2000 vs the Mig 21. Can't help it some people get worked up about it, I thought it was an interesting talk.

First of all, drop the condescending tone, this is just a discussion and it's unnecessary. Secondly, the R-60M (The missile I was referring to when discussion limited all aspect capability) was NOT rear aspect, The are limited all aspect, and were a damn good missile for their time. Very agile and a good seeker head. Even the R-60 was very capable. Frontally the MiG 21 stands as much of a chance as the skills of the pilot allow. If you are attacking an Eagle or Mirage frontally, your taking your life into your own hands anyway. The point is to get into the merge or near merge where you have a better chance, and in the merge the 21 has a better chance against the Mirage than several other of the aircraft in DCS. That has been the entire point I have raised, maybe you missed that. Third, have you ever flown the MiG 21 in adversarial PVP? Do you fly the MiG at all? Do you even own it? I do almost daily and get kills regularly. It's a matter of practice, judgement, and knowing your opponent. Yes- the Eagle and it's like have clear advantages, NO- that doesn't mean they will necessarily win an engagement. 8 R-60s is far from useless, and I have had more success with that loadout on PVP than many others. All this talk about it somehow killing the Fishbeds handling is balderdash. You seem to have limited knowledge of the 21 so let me drop a bomb on ya (no pun intended). One major advantage of the R-60 is it is VERY light. Did you know 8 R-60s weights 50 lbs more than 4 R-60s and 2 R-3RS? FIFTY... POUNDS... lol. That is nothing. You are talking out of your exhaust nozzle when you say it is a handicap. And even if I do bring a couple R-3Rs to attempt an early shot, after I've shot my SARH and the M2000 has done the same, I still got 100 percent more ordinance than he will. As far as me never being able to get on the tail of a M2000 after the initial pass? Hehehe... We will see about that. Dude. Relax man. No baseless claims being made here, I've based everything I have pointed out on what I thought was fact or reliable opinion. You totally missed the point of the F-16 pilots remark about the Fishbed. He was speaking to it's ability to climb, NOT it's low speed prowess, of which it has little. Also please quote where I said the MiG 21 was BETTER than the M2000? You can't because I never did. I said the MiG 21 has some unique advantages, even as a 3rd Gen+ fighter, against the M2000C which it does not have against the other 4th gen aircraft in the sim. I didn't even start this discussion, it came up in natural comparison and speculation, and as usual there were plenty to call the Fishbed obsolete junk when that is not the case, it is still a viable threat in the right hands and with the right configuration. Heck, even the Devs thought the discussion was worth having by posting a video of the two battling it out!!! Relax, no one is here to tell you the Fishbed is the best fighter in the sim... But don't write it off.

I've found no evidence of it being a bug, and I do not it would be unrealistic for a MiG to either have been able to do this or modified to do so. Either way, I'd prefer to keep the ability as it's nice to have in an aircraft that is often against the odds. In fact I would like to be able to carry 8 R-60Ms, but that doesn't work for some reason. Even if it is changed, two extra missiles is still a nice advantage in a merge.

Hard to say, I'm still trying to get it downloaded! Would love to here about some of the improvements or new features from those who have it. Any word on the RAM memory leak?

Look who is getting all abrasive! Chill out, dude, no reason to take it personally. Sounds like you really don't like the MiG The MiG 21 is capable of engaging in turn fights with REAL F-16s, so I am not basing that on the AI F-16, I am basing that on the accounts of real USAF pilots. "MiG-21 had the capability to get into the scissors with you, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, go from 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very maneuverable airplane..." - USAF Col. Terrence Fornof, Red Flag 2008, F-16 Aviator. Good enough? Now relax, this is a discussion not a flame war. My point is the MiG 21 will be able to present a threat to the M2000 in the merge and should not be dismissed. It was, is and continues to be a heck of an aircraft despite it's age and deadly in properly trained hands.

Thanks man!

Is there. DCS: F-16 release I missed somewhere? That would be a nice surprise

What? What effect is this? Video would be cool for those of us downloading forever lol

Agreed. I build coop missions for friends I fly with pretty often, one time I had a mission where a bridge had to be destroyed deep behind enemy lines, and the enemy had extensive air defense, and had active CAP patrolling and SAMS. The MiG 21 with S-24s and Groms was the only bird in DCS that could get the job done! Fun mission. We rode a canyon up right to a clearing were we fired at the bridge and got the heck outa dodge! I find that I am generally safe from manpads if I release a good burst of ASO flares when I am a few seconds away from release point with the S-24s. The high speed of attack makes AAA have a really hard time hitting you, especially if you break hard after firing the rockets. If only we had S-24s on dual pylons! THAT would be some $$$$ lol I also agree on the SU-25 Full module. I would kill for it. I wonder if they will start making full modules of the FC3 aircraft after the F-18 and SOH has been pushed? It seems like they would have a pretty huge head start with the great models and flight models. Maybe they could even contract a 3rd party to handle one? Would be pretty awesome!

That's what all the Eagle pilots said before the 21 released. . . Did you miss the Tacview? Looks like they stood a chance to me. 8 Missiles, guys, 8!!!! The Mig can carry 4 R-60s and 4-R-60Ms!!! Agree with most of your pros and cons. I disagree, the R-60 is an agile and effective missile despite being a bit older. The only draw back is the small warhead but it almost always put the bad guy out of the fight, whether it kills them or not. A pair of R-60s is worth two missiles lol. If this is a major factor for you I would recommend changing how you fire your weapons. If you ensure that you switch your next missile to the opposite pylon of the one you just fired the MiG 21 maintains very controllable flight characteristics. If you fire two missiles off the same wing, in a row, you are doing it wrong!Only weapon this is a major factor for is the KH-66 Grom, and it is not used in dog fights. I don't know if I totally agree that the Mirage is MUCH better in flight performance. The Fishbed can and will tangle with a F-16 in the merge. I actually find F-15s beatable in the merge, unless the pilot is smart enough to keep it vertical, in which case he will have a good advantage (when flown by players, not AI). The Mirage has a snappy role rate and perhaps a better sustained turn, but it has only a small climb advantage if any. It is slightly better, but not much better from what I can tell. And since a skilled Fishbed pilot can tangle with a Falcon, Eagle or Fulcrum and come out on top or at least alive by shot denial, if he is smart, the M2000 is certainly doable. As a frequent online MiG flier I find the Fulcrum and Flanker to be the biggest threat in the merge currently, thanks to that deadly HMD and high off-boresight R-77, I will usually run from them when I would stand and turn with an Eagle.

Yes indeed. Awesome mods, use them every day!

It's a Viggen guys... It just is.

The results: http://s12.postimg.org/5nuw3weq5/Screen_151129_213515.jpg' alt='Screen_151129_213515.jpg'> host image[/img]

So I did what I had to do... http://s15.postimg.org/miy6e7yhn/Screen_151129_213448.jpg' alt='Screen_151129_213448.jpg'> screen grab[/img]

Agreed, the 25T has more killing power than even the mighty A-10C I think!

So true! 500 lb warhead = no joke!

Honestly the S-24s on the fishbed are KILLER. You can do a lot of damage and GTH out of dodge before anyone can react. I love high speed deep strikes with those weapons. The bombs are a little tricky to employ, but I also love the S-8 rockets and the cannon. The cannon is a tack driver and with some practice you can do some damage to light armor using it. The Grom is an excellent weapon for taking out hard targets like fixed structures, or it's standard role of ship strike. Lot's of fun and challenging to use. I think the versatility of the Bis is outstanding, and it speaks to how much of a legend the bird really was.

Mehhh.... No thanks, I'll take the Viggen anyday. That thing is only noteworthy for getting smacked around by fishbeds IIRC The F-10-4 was easily one of the biggest POSes ever to serve in USAF service. It was a death trap. Killed over 100 pilots in the German Air Force alone and got smacked around in every engagement. Like the saying goes- "if you want a F-104, just buy a piece of land and wait..." It would get murdered in DCS by everything but WW2 aircraft, and even those may stand a good chance of surviving since the 104 pilot may very well get off'd by his plane before even getting to the fight.

Can we get a word from a LNS dev on this???! It's been a year and I would really like to have a functional pod

Before you question missile realism, keep in mind the ASO system isn't THAT old compared to the flares on the M2000, and there is no reason they couldn't jink a Magic II. Also noticed the Fishbed fired more and earlier CMs than Zues. And finally remember that could have been an R-3R fired from a quick radar lock with was absolutely designed for front aspect. In fact I might be surprised if it wasn't an R-3 If the missile was an Ahpid, keep in mind the R-60 was not junk. It was the most agile missile in its day, remains in service to this day, and is limited all aspect. It is capable of front offset shots in right condition. The biggest drawback to the R-60 was a small warhead, but that made them cheap and light, and they have kills on their combat record to prove effectiveness

Perhaps read my post more carefully instead of adding phrases in that I never said. Yes, the M2000 and MiG 21 could both be classified as multi role, regardless of the fact that there were originally intended for intercept. The minute the designers give a bird the ability to strap ground ordinance, it is now multi role by the most basic definition. Perhaps along with reading my post more carefully, you should read the first phrase describing the M2000 on the pre-sale page, my friend. That phrase being: The M2000C is a multi-role, French-designed, 4th generation fighter. I never said MODERN fighters, you said that, I was referring to multirole fast movers, of which both the MiG 21 and M2000 are. And regardless of if you think the MiG 21 and M2000 play in the same league, or if there are or are not reasons to compare them, because the fact is in a couple weeks they will be both playing in the same league, that league being DCS world, and I bet there will be a darn plenty of servers out there with both aircraft available. And I and other MiG drivers manage to kill above our generation regularly, so the fact that the M2000 has some underwhelming payload and countermeasure capabilities play to the older fighters advantage. I'm quite sure you wouldn't try to tell me that Gen 3 and Gen 4 fighters have never squared off in the real world? Never said they were "equal" only that the MiG 21 has a couple advantages, even for a 3rd Gen+ fighter that could make it a surprising match up for the M2000 in the merge. Especially when the Mirage is Winchester and the MiG still has teeth. AWESOME! Thanks so much for this, Zeus! Some don't seem to understand why there is a discussion for whatever reason, but clearly these two birds are going to be squaring off! Awesome TacView, I guess he got you with a close R-60 shot but you were still in the fight thanks to the firecracker warhead on that thing! Glad you are willing to fan the discussion on as I think its a fun topic, despite those who seems to get annoyed for some reason. Everyone in the debate take note- COUNTERMEASURES saved the first MiG on that Magic shot... Lol Like I said, countermeasures and payload matter a lot in the merge. Good to hear! I thought during some of the videos the energy loss seems to be pretty fast, which surprised me when I loaded up my Fishbed and noted it was keeping energy better when during comparable maneuvers than the videos demonstrating the M2000. Glad to hear you guys are going to match it up to the books a bit more. This is why discussions like this is a good thing!

Great charts. Interesting... Yes on paper it appears the Mirage has better sustained turn rate. That may help its lack of weapon and CM, but we will see. MiG vs. Mirage is something I'll be trying very quickly simply because I'm itching to have two full fidelity multirole fighters square off! This has never happened in DCS history

Back at home? I guess that implies you were under hospital care so I hope it wasn't serious and your back to 100% soon!

Agreed. As eager as we all are, myself included, LNS don't make crap and the reveal grows more epic by the day. Besides, we all know one of them is the Viggen...

I believe that to be a glitch as I was able to do full load-outs on prior builds.