Hook47

This statement got me very excited, especially reading into the statement "at least not visually" which leads me to believe the rest of the aircraft are pretty much done! Also since LNS indicated the visual aspect is on of the last steps on the F-14 that makes me thing the Viggen and maybe Corsair are coming up on a final stage!!!! Yea, I am over analyzing, but what else are we here for???

Honestly we are approaching having too many interceptors and light trainers. I think a couple new attack aircraft and a helo would be refreshing. We currently have three trainers and three aircraft primarily made to chase down and blow up bombers (Not so fun after the 4th or 5th time). Out of the total aircraft in the sim that is a pretty large chunk. I'm happy we are getting a true air to air beast (F-14) and and even a anti ship/ground attack (AJS 37) DCS is more than up to handling Carrier ops. I've seen so much done by mods that it will be easily achievable once actual devs work at it. Check out the carrier mods. I have more faith in LNS delivering the F-14 than any other third party or even ED delivering on anything else. I agree that a DCS MiG 29 and SU 27 would be a dream come true, but I would be equally interested in the 15/16/18

Like I have said multiple times, I would prefer the E variant, or a realistic addition. If it is totally unrealistic for more than two Magic IIs to ever have been on a C version, as in the aircraft or missile simply were not capable or some other blocking feature existed, so be it. Also no one is failing to respect Razbams choice here, I have said many times I am very happy with my purchase. . . That doesn't mean I can't find myself wishing it had better teeth in air to air encounters. As far as how it looks? It looks like some people saying they would like an E variant :D No one is asking Razbam to drop everything and do that, and we certainly don't want them to leave the 2000C in it's current very unfinished state. Heck there were people asking what the next aircraft would be months before release! I for one would love Razbam to be the first third party to expand upon a released aircraft with new variants. I think there is massive potential for such a thing and the development time in some cases would be less than a new aircraft like the Harrier. I would kill for the 2000N too!

Agreed. it appears the M-2000C started on the Falcons 6. If there is any US bird that could give the mirage a run in the merge on STT and ITR it should be the F-16

Do you actually fly on MP? I am guessing no. You seem to have a strong opinion against PVP in many of your posts but it strikes me that it is something you seem to have little experience with... My primary concern, as well as that of all the guys I regularly fly with is to get back alive, kills or not. So you are saying fire the BVR, a single magic then run leaving the target still in the fight? You realize you are not only breaking contact which now puts you in a bad position, but also giving the enemy your six so using your remaining Magic II will require you to simply reengage. This tactic makes no sense to me. With the M-2000Cs limited stores it is hard to engage even a single aircraft without expending everything. Valid point, my understanding was the Mirage was not actually intended to be a primary service fighter anyway, but that is was originally designed for export

That wasn't strictly my question. What the charts don't say is what happens to your airspeed during said turn, right? There is were I think the Eagle may do better. Maybe even the MiG. I haven't tested it much since this is beta. Good kills on that video, I don't know what the second MiG 21 was doing but I think he had totally lost sight... Loose sight, loose fight. Too bad the MiG 21 is the only bird in game I feel confident in my ability to take on ATM

I guess I should be asking Razbam why the C version then :music_whistling: To be clear, I would like the E version the most. I would like twin Magic pylons if either such a thing could have or did exist just to make the M2000C more viable. IIRC the R-77 was not largely fielded, yet having it on the MiG 29 is a whole different story than getting it on the 27. The KA-50 was a limited prototype yet we have it in the sim. Saying asking for twin missile pylons will lead to all realism being thrown out the window is pretty extreme. @ Tharos about the Grom.... I think you are failing to understand the difference between realistic and reality. The Grom was not put on MiG 21Bis, but the Grom required a radar that was put on the Bis version and had the exact same capabilities needed to fire the missile (from what I have heard) so it literally would have been as simple as mounting the weapon and wiring it to fire. . . Did it happen in real life? Not to our knowledge. Could it have been done? Easily. Have SU-27s and F-15s fought over the black sea in real life? H$$$ no. Do they in DCS? YES. This is the difference between what is and what could be, and our Sandbox Sim deals with what could be as much as it does what is.

Yea I kinda hate it too. The Mirage is such a paradox of an airplane. I dunno what Dassault was driving at with some of the design decisions, such as the CCRP mode, limited armament, low flare count and so on. I love it but hate a couple things about it that limit some of its mission effectiveness

Per the devs, this is the way Dassault designed the real jet. Because.... Reasons....(?)

OMG YES. LNS kills 'em all. Best 3rd party, hands down, and there are some great 3rd parties out there! You guys realize how refreshing it is to here a dev say it won't be released until it is right/no long unfished betas? HECK YES We totally support you LNS. Cannot wait to climb into those three sexy birds, and we are dying for the reveal of the Viggen and Corsair. :pilotfly:

Well RL is nice but obviously were we are concerning DCS is were is applies

I say to some degree on the R-3R because I haven't seen conclusive proof either way about it performance, so I assume it to be true, even though my perception is the opposite (It isn't effective for me) Where do you base this information? I had a USAF Lt. Col who was assigned to the USAF Weapons School tell me that even the latest 120C could be defeated by evasive maneuvering in a BVR shot, provided you knew it was coming and could afford to maneuver. This article https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/evading-air-to-air-missile/ also strongly backs up everything he told me. You make it sound like a 530D isn't beatable once fired within parameters. I think your perception of these weapons capability is far too high. The R-3R is like a front aspect old sidewinder. Just because I evaded BVR shouldn't and in my experience haven't prevented me from sometimes getting off my head to head shots.

Thanks for this info! Tanks in the 104th now then?

Your note speaking for everyone. Nearly every Mirage pilot I've spoke to online would love another couple Magics. Read my post more carefully. I said the addition of the Grom was believable and realistic because it could have been done. I never talked about its flight model in the game... Come to think of it tho, it is a bean riding radar guided missile... So are SARH??? That is beside the point, you seem to have a lot of beef with the MiG 21 for whatever reason. Purism is a mandate of the simulator? Realism and purism are not the same thing and ED themselves have made many many maaaany realistic departures to make the sim work that wouldn't make any sense if purism was the mandate. How could one explain the FC3 series if that is the case? Finally you quoted me incorrectly, again you should read my post more carefully. I said your statement had way too many "AFIAK" "in theory" blah blah and so forth for ED to treat your opinion like hard data. Asking... I say again, ASKING (not demanding) for implementation of twin missile pylons of the ARMAT, but which are not guesstimating but rather very realistic possibilities for this aircraft is totally different then me demanding changes to something just because I don't like how it is. I enjoy the M-2000C for what it is, but I would like additions or new variants that make it more capable in the DCS sandbox. To me, and sadly, the M-2000C feels like a real fighter stuck in a 1950s interceptors body... And unable to unleash its potential thanks to such limited stores. I find myself crying out to Dassault in the middle of dogfights in the 104th "Why in gods name did you only give me 4 missiles!!!" Lol The best option by far would be to get a E model or something like that. I said that from the start. I think was is disappointing in a way is we finally have a 4th gen fighter that otherwise could be so capable but just falls short of the mark. I guess maybe if we are lucky Razbam will decide to give us another variant, an upgrade, or they of another dev will pick a more capable aircraft down the road. The repurposed interceptors, trainers, ground attack birds and the like are all fun in there own right, but hold us back from the confrontation of equally capable weapons systems many want. Well we still have the F-18 in the pipe I reckon.

The R-3R we have in the sim is a reverse engineered radar guided Aim-9G. Despite talk about how much it needs to be nerfed (I use it for front aspect shots which my opposition is often caught off guard by and it still misses more than it hits) a front aspect shot is what it was partially designed for and it still misses easily if the target takes basic evasive action. It may be better than it should be to some degree but that has nothing to do with why I've done well against the M-2000C, as the 530D even in its current form has a far better range and guidance system. You guys realize how much work it takes to actually get an R-3R in the air right? The reason I almost only use them in head on passes is because God help you to get a lock in a dog fight.... I'm not saying it doesn't need adjustment but I don't get a lot of kills with it in PVP. Whatever advantage is may have that it shouldn't is more than offset by the PITA they are to use. More often than not I ditch them for R-60s

This is a valid point and something they REALLY need to fix right away. By "another simulator" do you mean *cough* BMS? *cough* You missed my point, brother, I wasn't disputing MiG 21s being shot down by more modern fighters, just poking at the phraseology of "Just flying up and shooting them in the face" as I feel fighter pilots would not be so flippant even in engaging a Gen 3+ fighter. Besides real MiGs being shot down by other fighters is kind of off the M-2000C vs MiG 21 topic, since I brought all this up talking about performance in the sim. I missed this from a couple pages back, Hummindbird. Yes agreed pilot skill is a major factor and the M-2000C has better capability than the 21, although like I said the 21 has enough minor advantages to help make up for the larger weaknesses. That being said though you said the Mirage will be a more agile F-15 when done, by the strong impression I have gotten from reading and from the devs is that the M-2000C does bleed quite a bit of energy, and that it backed up by HUD videos I have seen pursuing the web. In fact I think even the large F-15 manages energy better than the Delta wing M-2000C. Am I wrong for thinking so?

What do you think this thread is about??? REAL MiG 21 fighting REAL M-2000C? NOPE. This is about DCS MiG 21 vs DCS M-2000C.... in DCS world... which is a Sim/game depending on who you ask.... Did you miss that??? Talking about the real counterparts is nice as it pertains to the level of our simulation, but ultimately it's a sidetrack. We didn't buy DCS modules to sit around and talk about the real aircraft which almost all of us never have or ever will fly, we bought them to fly them and kill things in DCS world... The sim/game... I use barrel roll to evade missile, huh? Where did you get that? I said I used vertical maneuvers and I also use 3/9 to evade missile shots, but they don't do that in the real world, do they. I am sorry, I am driven by the need to win in "massive" (40 people tops) MP? Yes because by god I could never live with myself if I didn't dominate every engagement in DCS world. After all, it is so much more fun to get shot down all the time. I am sorry if you are angry that your French plane isn't doing as well as you might have hoped, but try to contain the outburst. I figured you would show up to try to sour things here but we were having some civil discourse. Stop taking everything so personally, and getting so personal. I'm just going to ignore your trollworthy posts from now on and continue the discourse with people who can have civil interaction. Seems you are more interested in ad hominem argument than discussion of DCS World aircraft.

Isn't it kind of hilarious how late things turn up around here? I can't help but wonder how dates end up getting set literal months or years before they can actually happen :lol:

Can't wait! I loved your MiG 21 campaign

Useless only I your mind, but to many who own the module it would be far from useless. The French AF has the luxury of using other aircraft that we do not have in DCS. Should those aircraft have been unavailable the M-2000C may have had a different story. DCS isn't real life, it is a sandbox military simulator. Also do you realize the aerodynamic impact of adding a couple missiles, particularly Magic IIs is minimal. The aircraft has had plenty of fuel for any mission I have done with it so far. It seems to have endurance on par with some of the other fighters in the sim, if not a little less, and since it has so many open pylons unused by missiles loading tanks is no issue. And if you think the ARMAT would be a useless mod in DCS, when we have exactly ONE slow mover SEAD aircraft in the sim, especially considering it has been done in the real world by export owners, I think you would find many here who totally disagree. Speak for yourself. We aren't talking about mods to the actual aircraft, but realistic upgrades inside the sim.

Maybe, but I think that is painting with too broad a brush. The fact is there isn't documentation for how most of these systems would or wouldn't interact.

Agreed. 1 27 can win against 1 F-15C if used correctly, in fact I would argue the SU-27 has a couple advantages that can be taken into account.

Interesting point. I guess the Mirage had less of a gap when compared to those contemporaries.

, Proof of what? That the MiG 21 is better than the Mirage? I never said that. All I have ever said was the MiG 21 stood a better chance against the Mirage than any other fighter currently in the sim, and that the Mirage stood a somewhat poor chance against every fighter besides the MiG 21 and that much seems to have been correct based on my experience. This is due to limited ordinance primarily. Like the pre-release discussion, your tactic sounds solid in theory, but doesn't seems to work as well in a non sterile environment, as I have been able to defeat SARH missiles on various aircraft with high/low maneuvers that allow me to keep my nose at the M-2000C, as he must do for his 530D. Here is what is regularly happening: Heading to merge, I have speed and altitude, so does M-2000C. He fires one or two 530Ds, I CM and evade in most cases when head on. We begin to close, within 5km of merging I cut AB to make front-aspect heater difficult and align for head on with M-2000C, most of the time M-2000C takes bait, because if he chooses not too I will end up with positional advantage in most cases. I ripple fire both R3Rs within 4, sometimes they hit, sometimes not. 70/30 chance of getting better position on M-2000C in first pass depending on skill of pilot. I have a good amount of CM so as soon as he gets a Magic II off I evade one or both if possible, and I return in kind, except I have 4 R-60Ms. So far I have won or had a draw in all encounters, draw meaning we damage eachother or break contact (Mirages tend to run fairly often, I am assuming because they are Winchester). I am sure I'll get splashed at some point as the M-2000C has advantages, but I have a few hours in so far and haven't gone down yet. Slaving the Magic II will be nice. Game changer? I do not know, because to my knowledge the Magic II will still have to be within seeker head parameters (I do not think it is high off boresight, right?) so yea it makes things faster, but once again you only got two and even with a slaved lock that missile is on it's own after it comes off the rail, so if there isn't a good IR signature it is done. I almost ALWAYS plan on "playing ambush" in the MiG 21, therefore bringing 8 missiles is often a great idea and if you can name another effective tactic for online play I am all ears!

:helpsmilie: Best reply in the thread, sir.... Rep added.