Scott-S6

I don't normally do reviews but there is a massive lack of info about this grip. Moza's website has very little information (and what it does have is incorrect) and the reviews I've seen are also lacking in useful detail. If you're considering buying one of these for use with a non-Moza base then you definitely want to read this! What is the MH-16 - This is a viper/warthog style grip which has the viper's forward rake built in (unlike the TM). This is important for side stick ergonomics. It has an adjustable palm shelf and an expansion module with additional functions. It also promises "easy fit, plug and play" with third party bases. More on that to come... Ordering & delivery - Moza's website is pretty messy. It promises lead times on new products which they seem to routinely miss (and feedback from racing sim guys suggests this has been normal for them with new products for a long time). You need to raise a support ticket to actually get your product shipped out. To be fair, they did ship exactly when support promised they would (albeit more than a month beyond the shipping time I'd been promised by the website). However, the website was not updated to show the order was shipped and to provide the tracking details until the day after delivery which is not helpful at all. Not the best start... Packaging - The grip was well packaged. Dense, well cut foam with an insert piece to keep the grip in place. The grip was inside a soft plastic bag to prevent paint scuffs. Box was sturdy, fitted with plastic corner protectors and then put into another sturdy box. No complaints about the packaging, Moza know what they're doing here. Before we get into details, lets talk price and comparisons for a bit. I'll be mostly be comparing to the TM Warthog/Viper (they're identical) as it's something that most of us have owned or at least used. There aren't many grips available with that built-in forward rake. Prices below are UK including shipping and tax: Moza MH-16 - £230 TM Warthog/Viper - £135 (+90 for a steel 3D printed tailpipe with the forward rake) Virpil Alpha - £210 Virpil Alpha Prime (CNC alu shell) - £310 RS F16SGRHv2 - £440 Functions - This is something that is completely missing from Moza's website so worth detailing: Trim - 4 way with diagonals (you can push up-left to trigger the up function and left function, it is not an 8-way as described on the website) Despite a clear push click the push does not work. TMS - 4 way. Despite a clear push click the push does not work. DMS - 4 way. Despite a clear push click the push does not work. CMS - 4 way with push Trigger - 2position Buttons - 3 plus pinky paddle (which is a button, no analogue axis) Expansion castle - 4 way with push Expansion switch - 3pos latching. I was not able to verify it is an On-On-On or an On-Off-On due to the 3rd party base compatibility. On 3rd party bases you get the following: Trim - 4 way and diagonals (you can push up-left to trigger the up function and left function, it is not an 8-way as described on the website) TMS - 4 way DMS - 4 way CMS - 4 way* Trigger - 2position Buttons - 3 plus pinky paddle (which is a button, no analogue axis) Expansion castle - no function Expansion switch - no function *on third party bases each directional push of the CMS triggers that direction AND push. There are two consequences of this, firstly push is not usable if you bind the directions because you will trigger it whenever you use a direction and secondly binding the directions is a pain in the butt. In DCS you have to bind the CMS directions by manually selecting them rather than actuating them on the stick. In other games where you don't have this option you'll be trying over and over to get the right function to be bound or editing config files. I took this up with Moza support and they consider this to be working as intended. What does Moza say about compatibility? "It effortlessly fits with most compatible bases, offering instant plug-and-play convenience." Moza have confirmed that they consider the bases that I tested with "compatible". Absolutely unacceptable in my opinion. I tested the MH16 on a TM Warthog base, Virpil CM2 base and RealSimulator R3L base. All showed this same behavior. The Virpil has a bunch of options for stick compatibility and I worked through all of them - either the grip didn't function or it functioned as above. Fit to the Warthog and Virpil bases was good. Fully tightened (with a pin wrench) on the RS base the grip was able to twist which is absolutely no use on a force sensing base. Build and Finish - The shell is diecast aluminium making it far lighter than the TM. The casting has been done well and there are obvious machining operations to ensure a good fit. The shell comes apart easily and fits back together properly. The tailpipe is either MIM or very well cast alu and the nut is machined alu. This is a significant improvement over the notoriously weak cast zinc parts on the TM. Also, the tailpipe fits very snugly into the grip, which should reduce the fore-aft slop problem that the TM tends to develop, and the nut is a much better fit for the base threads. Internally, all of the wiring is socketed into the main board for ease of assembly/disassembly. The adjustable palm rest functions smoothly. The hat switches are regular tactile switches in a plastic holder but they function well with a distinct tactile feedback and audible click. The push function on all hats is stiff enough to avoid accidental actuation. They're pretty good. The tactile feedback on the trigger is weak but present in both positions. The buttons, however, are soft with a very mushy tactile feedback at the very bottom of travel. The pinky paddle is well made and rigid with a very positive texture. The castle switch on the expansion module is ergonomically useless, require a complete break of your grip, even for those with large hands. If you've got short thumbs like me then it's easier to use the left hand to operate it. Summary - I wanted to like the MH-16. The adjustable palm rest, the nicer materials and the top engraving were very appealing and I was intending to use it on my RS base. The lack of a properly functioning CMS and the poor buttons (and the poor fit to the RS base) means that's no good for me. But, will it work for you? If you're flying center stick then the forward rake becomes a detriment. I would recommend going with any of the more upright grips available. If you're flying side stick with a Moza base then you really do want that forward rake and all of the switches are working. However, if Moza get the Virpil Alpha fully supported as promised that is a better quality grip for less as long as you can live with three hat switches plus an analogue stick rather than four hat switches (if Moza do get the analogue stick supported I doubt they'll be offering the virtual button functionality that virpil offer to allow you to bind the analogue stick as a hat switch) If you're flying side stick with any other base then I cannot recommend the MH-16 due to the CMS issues. A properly functioning CMS switch is important for the teen fighters and a bunch of other modules, plus the hassle of binding it, if you can tolerate not having a functional CMS push. An Alpha or a modded TM warthog is a better bet. (note, the stand in the pics is a virpil product)

There might be a freebie in your future.

Mine said that until the day after it arrived... I think there's a decent chance that your parcel is already on the way. It seems like the "hope you enjoy your thing" email is triggered by despatch but it's not well integrated into their website.

I also got the "hope your order went well" before delivery and I didn't get the ship notification until the day after delivery...

Update from Moza support. Moza consider the MH-16 to be "compatible" with all the bases I tested it on because supports everything that the TM does. Despite not having a usable CMS push (not if you also want to use the CMS directions) and the binding nonsense with the CMS functions you can actually use. So, what we have is a viper grip that doesn't have the functions required for the viper when used on 3rd party bases and is a pain in the butt to bind. "Effortless plug and play" indeed. ETA - since putting the statement above to them, they have stopped responding to me. I do not consider this grip compatible with third party bases at this time. It may become compatible if some of those base manufacturers want to support it but it is not at the moment.

Just one big one. Got to reach in with a screwdriver and lever it into place as you close the halves. I kept the trigger with the right side of the shell and the trigger board. Might be easier keeping the trigger with the left half of the shell but I did not test that.

So, overall? I wanted to like the MH16 but the buttons, the issue with the CMS switch (not being able to use the CMS push is not acceptable) and the poor fit to a realsim base means it's no good for my use case. If you've got a Moza base setup sidestick then the MH16 or the Virpil Alpha (if Moza get their support for it sorted) should be at the top of your list. Not many grips available with the correct forward rake built in.

Internal construction is okay. As expected the hat switches are just regular tactile switches in a plastic holder. The tailpipe is connected the same way as a TM but is a much better fit for the shell so it ought to resist the fore-aft slop problem at least somewhat. My guess is that the tailpipe is a MIM part which would be very sensible (better than the cast zinc on the warthog). Whoever did the alu castings did a pretty good job. They aren't bad at all and there are machining operations on the cast parts to ensure a good fit (odd that it seems at least some of the machining was done after painting - was the plan that they would not need to do this?). The shell fits back together well. The only hassle on reassembly is the spring for the trigger. Also, all of the shell screws are identical which makes things slightly easier. (They do spoil this by having two different screws for the expansion module which also requires two screwdrivers, neither of which is the one for the shell screws)

Yep, not making the shell out of cast zinc (like TM and WinWing) will do that.

As a versatile stick for use with various bases? Warthog with a steel 3d printed tailpipe that has the angle built in is approximately the same price and better. I've just put that back onto my realsim fssb. I like the better materials, the engraving on the top, the adjustable palm shelf. The poor buttons let it down and the CMS issue will be an annoyance every time you try and bind it. The press on all hats and all functions of the expansion module don't work. For use with the Moza base if you're using it sidestick and don't have a TM? You get a few extra presses and the 3pos switch. The hat switch on the extension module is ergonomically useless. The forward angle is basically essential for a sidestick. It's the same price as the warthog once you add the forward rake to the warthog. If Moza support the virpil alpha properly then that'll be the best sidestick grip for it. For center stick use - warthog or virpil.

Got a response back from Moza about the CMS functioning incorrectly. Apparently this is just how it acts on 3rd party bases. That is rubbish. You can use the four directions but not the push and binding them will be a massive hassle in some games and impossible in others. ETA - I'm still talking to Moza about this and have challenged them as to which bases they believe it is compatible with. Their website says "Effortless plug-and-play compatibility ensures it fits most bases seamlessly" which currently appears to be an outright lie.

Testing - On a Warthog base the buttons and hats mostly work. The expansion module does not work and the press doesn't work on any hat except the CMS. However, the CMS press is triggered in addition to the direction when moved in any direction, even when taking great care not to actuate the press. This is either a compatibility issue or an electrical fault... The nut fits the base very well, better than the TM nut. On a RealSim FSSB base, it gets the same results. The tailpipe doesn't fit the base well resulting in a left-right rotational slop even when tightened down. On a Virpil CM2 base, it gets the same results again. Fits well enough. I had expected that the extra functions may likely not work but the faulty CMS is a problem. I'll be raising a ticket with Moza on this. CMS Right, Left and Press shown below.

Some initial comments, more to come. (I'll be testing it on a variety of bases and taking it apart) Moza didn't update my order to shipped and give me the tracking number until the day after it was delivered, which is useless. Packaging was fine. All of the hat switches have push so the two they do describe are described incorrectly (their website is horrible), to confirm: they are all 5 way. They describe the trim as 8 way, it's 5 way but you can push a diagonal and get both adjacent functions (i.e. pushing up/left gives you up and left rather than a separate button). The hat switches are pretty good. They have a nice tactile click in all directions, a little slop but not too bad. The push is stiff enough that you don't accidentally activate it. No need to use them carefully to avoid that like with virpil. The trigger has two tactile clicks but they're very weak. It also has a grinding spring noise as you pull it. Not great. The three buttons and paddle switch have no tactile click and are softly sprung. Disappointing. The paddle is very rigid and has a very positive texture. Can't tell if the tailpipe is cast or machined from the outside (it's painted and has good surface texture). Also interested to see how it's attached to the base (the slot in the nut suggests that it's very similar to the TM and will become loose fore and aft with heavy forces). It has a separate connector that can be rotated but it has the lugs that engage with bases that have TM style attachment so cannot be rotated on those.

Correct. The winwing F16EX has a castle switch and an analogue stick on the expansion module, the MH16 has a castle switch and a three pos latching toggle.

Ideally you want both rotary encoders and analogue dials. Some sims/games/modules work better with one or the other.. You still haven't made an argument for why Arduino other than familiarity in programming them which doesn't really matter if the alternative is something that doesn't require programming. If you're not planning any functionality that can't be provided by a simple USB interface board then what's the point? If you are then it makes sense - for example you could have virtual analogue outputs bound to the rotary encoders so that one control can be either (as virpil, for example, offers).

You say the goal is maximum compatibility but you're proposing on-off-on switches which are less compatible than on-on-on. I would definitely suggest changing that. I also don't see why you're intending to go with arduinos over simpler solutions unless you are planning some functionality you haven't mentioned which requires them. If you aren't then the BBI64 will be far simpler for you. Or you could go with a pair of boards if you wanted some analogue axis in there. A couple of analogue rotaries is worth considering, sometimes you just can't get the behaviour you want with rotary encoders.

Are you talking about the Alpha or the MH16? The MH16 (which is what this thread is about) doesn't have an analogue stick.

The brake lever, mechanically, has both an analogue axis and a button. The base isn't doing any kind of conversion or mapping. The analogue stick is analogue only. Correct, there's nothing you can configure that will be transferred with the grip to another base.

This grip doesn't have any analogue axis.

The only toxic thing here is Moza's code theft and it is actively harmful to the community because it discourages people from producing things like this and making them freely available. It will cost Moza nothing to comply with the GPL - it will cost them far more to eliminate the code they've used which will have saved them a LOT of development cost. You might want to go do some reading on GPL because it's clear that you don't understand it at all.

Yeah, it's not the best.

The programmable light won't work and if you get the one with the twist axis that won't work.

Just replace the momentary switch with a similar latching one. It won't require any electrical/electronic changes.

They've promised shipping in a week. Other people have already received them...

Delayed to Dec-Jan