Scott-S6

Most modern military aircraft are up to 40KG. The AH64 is high 30s with a stick approx 0.3m long. The AB9 is delivering 4kg at the end of a 0.3m stick (if moza's numbers can be trusted). The F16 is a poor comparison to make in Nm because the very short stick drastically reduces the numbers.

How could it do that when the real forces are far beyond (~10x) what the stick can produce?

They also say about their MH16 grip "It effortlessly fits with most compatible bases, offering instant plug-and-play convenience." but the CMS doesn't work properly, even with bases they consider to be compatible. That is complete nonsense. The mechanical connection is not electrical and will not affect buttons working in any way. They have no clue or are outright lying. Both are distinct possibilities, Moza simply isn't a good company. I gave them a chance with the MH16 to see if their products or practices had improved, they have not.

Do you use an extension? The AB9 is pretty bulky so you might need to tweak your mount a little to get the stick where you want it. Also, you'll ideally want to rotate the grip for a center mount, which you can't do without an extension. Good that you've got a proper mount, using a stick sat on the desk is horrible.

You're not wrong (and TBH, desktop use is ergonomically poor regardless) but the CM base doesn't even offer you something to attempt desktop use. Thought that was worth pointing out to someone coming from TM who might not have considered that.

Yes, they probably did design it for side mounting - we can see that in the inability to rotate the grip unless you use a third party extension. A pretty poor concept, IMO. And I agree that it's an immature product in an immature market but that doesn't change the standards I expect in hardware, why would it? I'm perfectly content to wait for something better from a better company. None of that excuses the substantial issues with the MH16.

I think you should actually make one, even if somewhat messy, and put some hours on it before you start looking at having boards made. Your ideas will change once you put your prototype to use. You should also get your software into a decent state as well. "even far exceeding the functions available on the market" - what functions are you planning that are not available?

Obviously and not the point. It's another flawed and mediocre product from Moza, as expected. (Not to mention that it's a complete mess with non-moza bases despite the promised "effortless plug and play") The MH16 grip isn't even a good match for the AB9 since the AB9 is best used center stick (all of the applications where FFB has something significant to offer are center stick) and the MH16 is really only suitable for side stick.

Hardly waxing poetic, these are things that a conventional base should have so that it can be setup correctly. A base without them is simply inadequate. Lots of people fly a single aircraft exclusively for months or years so that on the fly change capability isn't much of a plus for them, assuming that they even want to change it. I do fly different aircraft and play different games with my cockpit. I've never felt the need to change springs or cams after initial setup. It's not like any of the FFBs currently available are capable of offering anywhere close to the correct stick forces anyway. As for Moza hardware - I gave them a chance to see if they'd improved with the MH16, they have not.

TBF, Virpil's collective and the Apache grip are definitely not the best things they've made. They could be better. If he's basing his opinion of all virpil kit on those then I can see why he'd be underwhelmed. Who's making a better collective though? It's not WW or VKB.

If you want a conventional base (not force feedback or force sensing) then the virpil CM might be the best one available. Hardware, electronics, software and support are all top of the stack. You've got a bunch of cams and springs for different feels and spring force can be easily adjusted in place from the top. You've got lots of compatible (and mostly compatible) grips to choose from. The one caveat - it is not suitable for use sitting on your desktop. It's too tall and has no suitable base. You must attach it to a cockpit frame or desk mount.

So now you're suggesting that software doesn't/shouldn't even count as IP? It's pure intellectual snobbery then?

Yes, I've tried them. The Brunner specifically. What benefit is there in the FA18? Having it vibrate when you shoot the gun and similar? Pass. I mostly fly the most modern jets so it's value to me is limited. if you fly warbirds then it's very significant, sure, but if I flew warbirds I would want a stick with the roll axis high on the column, not on the floor. The bigger problem is that there is still no option that I consider acceptable at the moment. The Brunner is well made but not well designed and Moza hardware has always been mediocre and overpriced (their MH16 grip I tested and tore down does nothing to change that impression). The Rhino is a very cool garage project but needs refinement. The market here needs some time to mature, in a year or two it'll be a very different landscape. I may get one to mess about with when Virpil's drops (better electronics, software and grip compatibility are major positives over WW unless they surprise us). I will kick that off with a proper heat saturation test complete with temp sensors on the motors and an ammeter to measure exactly when and how much it throttles. Disappointing that we still don't have that data on the Moza... For context here - I have a realsim sidestick just for the F16 and virtual fly pedals. Those I consider to be "good". The rest of my kit is currently virpil's best stuff which I consider to be just about acceptable (from a hardware perspective, their electronics and software are definitely good). I'm in the process of building a throttle from scratch (Honeywell switches, all machined, no 3D printing) because there's nothing out there that I consider good enough. Am I super picky about hardware? Yes...

For many jets an FFB is pointless.

It's really very simple. People that have created something of value understand the importance of IP rights. Those that do not, have not

I'm not sure how useful that would be. Human memory is not good at accurately recording sensations like that and they are very subjective to your fitness level. You would need to get current, not ex, pilots to do that RealSim (who make the good force sensing bases) quite regularly have retired F16 pilots tell them that the base is too stiff, it takes too much force to operate - they respond with an invitation to their workshop to compare it side by side with a real one which is twice as stiff as their consumer grade base... For many aircraft there is public data about stick forces and measuring the forces on your stick isn't difficult. That would be the best way to do it.

If believing that makes you feel better then you do you but it's very much not true. Would anyone have bought an AB9 if the software didn't exist? The hardware doesn't function without the software (even for directinput), the two are inextricably linked. This isn't like thrustmaster's target software which you can just choose not to use (and many do), you need the software for the hardware to function. Also, maybe read the license agreement for that software... If the software really was inconsequential then why don't they release the source under the GPL and there won't be any code theft issue anymore? This is all they have to do in return for using code that has saved them six figures in dev costs. If you just said "I don't care, it's not my problem" then that's a position I guess but these mental gymnastics suggest that you do care

They can use the same code base if they want, they just need to release their modified version under the GPL for other people to also use - contribute back to the community that provided them with the code that makes their product work. That's the whole point of the GPL - if you benefit from someone else's code then you let other people benefit from the improvements you make to it. All Moza need to do in order to comply with the license of the code they've used, that saved them huge amount of development cost, is share their version of it under the same license.

It really depends how you have the base configured. If you're running max force with red warning at 100% then you don't want to be regularly exceeding it. If you're running 50% force then hitting the red isn't going to hurt it at all. If have mine configured with slightly reduced force, green at 95%, red at 100% - unless I hit red and keep pulling I'm going to be within envelope.

I don't normally do reviews but there is a massive lack of info about this grip. Moza's website has very little information (and what it does have is incorrect) and the reviews I've seen are also lacking in useful detail. If you're considering buying one of these for use with a non-Moza base then you definitely want to read this! What is the MH-16 - This is a viper/warthog style grip which has the viper's forward rake built in (unlike the TM). This is important for side stick ergonomics. It has an adjustable palm shelf and an expansion module with additional functions. It also promises "easy fit, plug and play" with third party bases. More on that to come... Ordering & delivery - Moza's website is pretty messy. It promises lead times on new products which they seem to routinely miss (and feedback from racing sim guys suggests this has been normal for them with new products for a long time). You need to raise a support ticket to actually get your product shipped out. To be fair, they did ship exactly when support promised they would (albeit more than a month beyond the shipping time I'd been promised by the website). However, the website was not updated to show the order was shipped and to provide the tracking details until the day after delivery which is not helpful at all. Not the best start... Packaging - The grip was well packaged. Dense, well cut foam with an insert piece to keep the grip in place. The grip was inside a soft plastic bag to prevent paint scuffs. Box was sturdy, fitted with plastic corner protectors and then put into another sturdy box. No complaints about the packaging, Moza know what they're doing here. Before we get into details, lets talk price and comparisons for a bit. I'll be mostly be comparing to the TM Warthog/Viper (they're identical) as it's something that most of us have owned or at least used. There aren't many grips available with that built-in forward rake. Prices below are UK including shipping and tax: Moza MH-16 - £230 TM Warthog/Viper - £135 (+90 for a steel 3D printed tailpipe with the forward rake) Virpil Alpha - £210 Virpil Alpha Prime (CNC alu shell) - £310 RS F16SGRHv2 - £440 Functions - This is something that is completely missing from Moza's website so worth detailing: Trim - 4 way with diagonals (you can push up-left to trigger the up function and left function, it is not an 8-way as described on the website) Despite a clear push click the push does not work. TMS - 4 way. Despite a clear push click the push does not work. DMS - 4 way. Despite a clear push click the push does not work. CMS - 4 way with push Trigger - 2position Buttons - 3 plus pinky paddle (which is a button, no analogue axis) Expansion castle - 4 way with push Expansion switch - 3pos latching. I was not able to verify it is an On-On-On or an On-Off-On due to the 3rd party base compatibility. On 3rd party bases you get the following: Trim - 4 way and diagonals (you can push up-left to trigger the up function and left function, it is not an 8-way as described on the website) TMS - 4 way DMS - 4 way CMS - 4 way* Trigger - 2position Buttons - 3 plus pinky paddle (which is a button, no analogue axis) Expansion castle - no function Expansion switch - no function *on third party bases each directional push of the CMS triggers that direction AND push. There are two consequences of this, firstly push is not usable if you bind the directions because you will trigger it whenever you use a direction and secondly binding the directions is a pain in the butt. In DCS you have to bind the CMS directions by manually selecting them rather than actuating them on the stick. In other games where you don't have this option you'll be trying over and over to get the right function to be bound or editing config files. I took this up with Moza support and they consider this to be working as intended. What does Moza say about compatibility? "It effortlessly fits with most compatible bases, offering instant plug-and-play convenience." Moza have confirmed that they consider the bases that I tested with "compatible". Absolutely unacceptable in my opinion. I tested the MH16 on a TM Warthog base, Virpil CM2 base and RealSimulator R3L base. All showed this same behavior. The Virpil has a bunch of options for stick compatibility and I worked through all of them - either the grip didn't function or it functioned as above. Fit to the Warthog and Virpil bases was good. Fully tightened (with a pin wrench) on the RS base the grip was able to twist which is absolutely no use on a force sensing base. Build and Finish - The shell is diecast aluminium making it far lighter than the TM. The casting has been done well and there are obvious machining operations to ensure a good fit. The shell comes apart easily and fits back together properly. The tailpipe is either MIM or very well cast alu and the nut is machined alu. This is a significant improvement over the notoriously weak cast zinc parts on the TM. Also, the tailpipe fits very snugly into the grip, which should reduce the fore-aft slop problem that the TM tends to develop, and the nut is a much better fit for the base threads. Internally, all of the wiring is socketed into the main board for ease of assembly/disassembly. The adjustable palm rest functions smoothly. The hat switches are regular tactile switches in a plastic holder but they function well with a distinct tactile feedback and audible click. The push function on all hats is stiff enough to avoid accidental actuation. They're pretty good. The tactile feedback on the trigger is weak but present in both positions. The buttons, however, are soft with a very mushy tactile feedback at the very bottom of travel. The pinky paddle is well made and rigid with a very positive texture. The castle switch on the expansion module is ergonomically useless, require a complete break of your grip, even for those with large hands. If you've got short thumbs like me then it's easier to use the left hand to operate it. Summary - I wanted to like the MH-16. The adjustable palm rest, the nicer materials and the top engraving were very appealing and I was intending to use it on my RS base. The lack of a properly functioning CMS and the poor buttons (and the poor fit to the RS base) means that's no good for me. But, will it work for you? If you're flying center stick then the forward rake becomes a detriment. I would recommend going with any of the more upright grips available. If you're flying side stick with a Moza base then you really do want that forward rake and all of the switches are working. However, if Moza get the Virpil Alpha fully supported as promised that is a better quality grip for less as long as you can live with three hat switches plus an analogue stick rather than four hat switches (if Moza do get the analogue stick supported I doubt they'll be offering the virtual button functionality that virpil offer to allow you to bind the analogue stick as a hat switch) If you're flying side stick with any other base then I cannot recommend the MH-16 due to the CMS issues. A properly functioning CMS switch is important for the teen fighters and a bunch of other modules, plus the hassle of binding it, if you can tolerate not having a functional CMS push. An Alpha or a modded TM warthog is a better bet. (note, the stand in the pics is a virpil product)

There might be a freebie in your future.

Mine said that until the day after it arrived... I think there's a decent chance that your parcel is already on the way. It seems like the "hope you enjoy your thing" email is triggered by despatch but it's not well integrated into their website.

I also got the "hope your order went well" before delivery and I didn't get the ship notification until the day after delivery...

Update from Moza support. Moza consider the MH-16 to be "compatible" with all the bases I tested it on because supports everything that the TM does. Despite not having a usable CMS push (not if you also want to use the CMS directions) and the binding nonsense with the CMS functions you can actually use. So, what we have is a viper grip that doesn't have the functions required for the viper when used on 3rd party bases and is a pain in the butt to bind. "Effortless plug and play" indeed. ETA - since putting the statement above to them, they have stopped responding to me. I do not consider this grip compatible with third party bases at this time. It may become compatible if some of those base manufacturers want to support it but it is not at the moment.

Just one big one. Got to reach in with a screwdriver and lever it into place as you close the halves. I kept the trigger with the right side of the shell and the trigger board. Might be easier keeping the trigger with the left half of the shell but I did not test that.