Scott-S6

It's not swappable switches - the hat switches are all 4-way plus push but there are swappable hats that limit or don't the functions. These are supposed to be included. I'm still waiting for mine.

Even sillier considering you don't have functionality that the F16 has when you use it on a non-moza base.

When used on the Moza base? That's interesting.

So not the 40KG need for the M2000 then? I don't disagree but I'm not the one asking AI to make a profile for the AB9 that replicates real world forces, something that the AB9 is patently incapable of doing. (And even if it could, he'd need to tell the AI how long his stick setup is...)

Exactly - to simulate the forces needed for the first cm of moment you're maxing out the AB9's forces. These forces are higher than modern hydraulically assisted aircraft but they are still considerable.

Even based on your example for an unspecified aircraft (odd that you wouldn't mention what aircraft this is for) the AB9 is way off the correct forces with any decent length of extension. If we go with a (rather short) 10cm extension then it's doing ~6kg versus the 16 in your graph. For a 20cm it's doing 4KG Vs 16. Hornet needs about 19KG aft pull, M2000 needs a 40KG aft pull for max pitch input, just for example. None of the FFB sticks available are anywhere close to realistic forces. With a 20cm extension (30cm stick including grip), the AB9 can't even provide enough force for a 2G pull in the hornet. This doesn't mean that it's useless but don't pretend that it's generating realistic forces.

Most modern military aircraft are up to 40KG. The AH64 is high 30s with a stick approx 0.3m long. The AB9 is delivering 4kg at the end of a 0.3m stick (if moza's numbers can be trusted). The F16 is a poor comparison to make in Nm because the very short stick drastically reduces the numbers.

How could it do that when the real forces are far beyond (~10x) what the stick can produce?

They also say about their MH16 grip "It effortlessly fits with most compatible bases, offering instant plug-and-play convenience." but the CMS doesn't work properly, even with bases they consider to be compatible. That is complete nonsense. The mechanical connection is not electrical and will not affect buttons working in any way. They have no clue or are outright lying. Both are distinct possibilities, Moza simply isn't a good company. I gave them a chance with the MH16 to see if their products or practices had improved, they have not.

Do you use an extension? The AB9 is pretty bulky so you might need to tweak your mount a little to get the stick where you want it. Also, you'll ideally want to rotate the grip for a center mount, which you can't do without an extension. Good that you've got a proper mount, using a stick sat on the desk is horrible.

You're not wrong (and TBH, desktop use is ergonomically poor regardless) but the CM base doesn't even offer you something to attempt desktop use. Thought that was worth pointing out to someone coming from TM who might not have considered that.

Yes, they probably did design it for side mounting - we can see that in the inability to rotate the grip unless you use a third party extension. A pretty poor concept, IMO. And I agree that it's an immature product in an immature market but that doesn't change the standards I expect in hardware, why would it? I'm perfectly content to wait for something better from a better company. None of that excuses the substantial issues with the MH16.

I think you should actually make one, even if somewhat messy, and put some hours on it before you start looking at having boards made. Your ideas will change once you put your prototype to use. You should also get your software into a decent state as well. "even far exceeding the functions available on the market" - what functions are you planning that are not available?

Obviously and not the point. It's another flawed and mediocre product from Moza, as expected. (Not to mention that it's a complete mess with non-moza bases despite the promised "effortless plug and play") The MH16 grip isn't even a good match for the AB9 since the AB9 is best used center stick (all of the applications where FFB has something significant to offer are center stick) and the MH16 is really only suitable for side stick.

Hardly waxing poetic, these are things that a conventional base should have so that it can be setup correctly. A base without them is simply inadequate. Lots of people fly a single aircraft exclusively for months or years so that on the fly change capability isn't much of a plus for them, assuming that they even want to change it. I do fly different aircraft and play different games with my cockpit. I've never felt the need to change springs or cams after initial setup. It's not like any of the FFBs currently available are capable of offering anywhere close to the correct stick forces anyway. As for Moza hardware - I gave them a chance to see if they'd improved with the MH16, they have not.

TBF, Virpil's collective and the Apache grip are definitely not the best things they've made. They could be better. If he's basing his opinion of all virpil kit on those then I can see why he'd be underwhelmed. Who's making a better collective though? It's not WW or VKB.

If you want a conventional base (not force feedback or force sensing) then the virpil CM might be the best one available. Hardware, electronics, software and support are all top of the stack. You've got a bunch of cams and springs for different feels and spring force can be easily adjusted in place from the top. You've got lots of compatible (and mostly compatible) grips to choose from. The one caveat - it is not suitable for use sitting on your desktop. It's too tall and has no suitable base. You must attach it to a cockpit frame or desk mount.

So now you're suggesting that software doesn't/shouldn't even count as IP? It's pure intellectual snobbery then?

Yes, I've tried them. The Brunner specifically. What benefit is there in the FA18? Having it vibrate when you shoot the gun and similar? Pass. I mostly fly the most modern jets so it's value to me is limited. if you fly warbirds then it's very significant, sure, but if I flew warbirds I would want a stick with the roll axis high on the column, not on the floor. The bigger problem is that there is still no option that I consider acceptable at the moment. The Brunner is well made but not well designed and Moza hardware has always been mediocre and overpriced (their MH16 grip I tested and tore down does nothing to change that impression). The Rhino is a very cool garage project but needs refinement. The market here needs some time to mature, in a year or two it'll be a very different landscape. I may get one to mess about with when Virpil's drops (better electronics, software and grip compatibility are major positives over WW unless they surprise us). I will kick that off with a proper heat saturation test complete with temp sensors on the motors and an ammeter to measure exactly when and how much it throttles. Disappointing that we still don't have that data on the Moza... For context here - I have a realsim sidestick just for the F16 and virtual fly pedals. Those I consider to be "good". The rest of my kit is currently virpil's best stuff which I consider to be just about acceptable (from a hardware perspective, their electronics and software are definitely good). I'm in the process of building a throttle from scratch (Honeywell switches, all machined, no 3D printing) because there's nothing out there that I consider good enough. Am I super picky about hardware? Yes...

For many jets an FFB is pointless.

It's really very simple. People that have created something of value understand the importance of IP rights. Those that do not, have not

I'm not sure how useful that would be. Human memory is not good at accurately recording sensations like that and they are very subjective to your fitness level. You would need to get current, not ex, pilots to do that RealSim (who make the good force sensing bases) quite regularly have retired F16 pilots tell them that the base is too stiff, it takes too much force to operate - they respond with an invitation to their workshop to compare it side by side with a real one which is twice as stiff as their consumer grade base... For many aircraft there is public data about stick forces and measuring the forces on your stick isn't difficult. That would be the best way to do it.

If believing that makes you feel better then you do you but it's very much not true. Would anyone have bought an AB9 if the software didn't exist? The hardware doesn't function without the software (even for directinput), the two are inextricably linked. This isn't like thrustmaster's target software which you can just choose not to use (and many do), you need the software for the hardware to function. Also, maybe read the license agreement for that software... If the software really was inconsequential then why don't they release the source under the GPL and there won't be any code theft issue anymore? This is all they have to do in return for using code that has saved them six figures in dev costs. If you just said "I don't care, it's not my problem" then that's a position I guess but these mental gymnastics suggest that you do care

They can use the same code base if they want, they just need to release their modified version under the GPL for other people to also use - contribute back to the community that provided them with the code that makes their product work. That's the whole point of the GPL - if you benefit from someone else's code then you let other people benefit from the improvements you make to it. All Moza need to do in order to comply with the license of the code they've used, that saved them huge amount of development cost, is share their version of it under the same license.

It really depends how you have the base configured. If you're running max force with red warning at 100% then you don't want to be regularly exceeding it. If you're running 50% force then hitting the red isn't going to hurt it at all. If have mine configured with slightly reduced force, green at 95%, red at 100% - unless I hit red and keep pulling I'm going to be within envelope.