DSR_T-800

"Anyways you gotta have a turbo supercharger to take of P-47 upstairs." :D

Kurfürst, we see this argument time and time again, but It doesn't seem like you're getting the point. When you call your game DCS WWII: Europe 1944 your player base is going to expect planes that are most relevant and representative of their airforces IN 1944. So to add powerful end war planes like the K-4 and D-9 that we all know and can all agree are not representative of the Luftwaffe in 1944 would not be fair to the Allies as their aircraft are the workhorses of 1944. Also in combination it is especially unfair to have the allied aircraft running on 1943 power settings. What would then be fair is to add non-representative aircraft or increased power settings for the Allies. Now before anyone mentions the Mustang in game is not a 1944, you should know that a Mustang in 1944 would be about the same, but excluding the Tail warning radar. IMO, this would be a proper 1944. Spitfire Mk LF IXc P-51D-**, K-14 gunsight + Dorsal fin as field modifications. P-47D-**, K-14 gunsight + Dorsal fin as field modifications. Bf-109G-14 or G-10 Fw-190A-8 or A-9

Give people airspawns.

They probably haven't touched it since they put it on the shelf to work on the more well documented Spitfire IX. I'm sure more research has to be done on the P-47 as they were lacking in wind tunneling data.

HeadHunter52, we should all just start chanting "BRING THE JUG!"

Highly doubt an Anton could dive with a P-47 unless at a very low altitude. When it comes to diving the P-47 should be ≥ the P-51. The speed and dive advantage will be diminish because of the highly unrealistic late war opponents. However at high altitude the P-47 should still remain king. DCS needs B-17/B-24 escort missions for the P-51 and P-47. German pilots have had their fun with pointless low altitude turn and burn dogfights :).

I believe Robert S. Johnson was just demonstrating the strengths of the P-47C over the Spitfire IX. In reality I don't think a P-47 pilot would engage in a roll scissors against an A/C unless at high speeds where the P-47 sustains a good roll rate advantage over most A/C.

Spitfire IX vs P-47C, "We flew together in formation, and then I decided to see just what this airplane had to it's credit. I opened the throttle full and the Thunderbolt forged ahead. A moment later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me. He couldn't make it, the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire; suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back; the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position. But my advantage won only the zoom-once in steady climb, he had me. I gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if I were standing still. Could that plane CLIMB! He tore upward in a climb I couldn't match in the Jug. Now it was his turn; the broad elliptical wings rolled, swung around and the Spit screamed in, hell-bent on chewing me up. This was going to be fun. I knew he could turn inside the heavy Thunderbolt; if I attempted to hold a tight turn the Spitfire would slip right inside me. I knew, also, that he could easily outclimb my fighter. I stayed out of these sucker traps. First rule in this kind of a fight: don't fight the way your opponent fights best. No sharp turns; don't climb; keep him at your own level. We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded with cement, and snap out in firing position. Well, I had a few tricks, too. The P-47 was faster, and I threw the ship into a roll. Right here I had him. The Jug could outroll any plane in the air, bar none. With my speed, roll was my only advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could whirl. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once, twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the right rudder, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went, left, right, left, right. I could whip through better than two rolls before the Spitfire even completed his first. And this killed his ability to turn inside me. I just refused to turn. Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away to the opposite side, opening the gap between our two planes. Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for the earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow-and I was a long way ahead of him by now-when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it-for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit." This would be interesting to simulate considering we will have both planes in game.

Do you guys have access to the FHC P-47? http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20121018/BLOG5206/121009935

F-47D-30 ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930083857.pdf http://www.warfare.altervista.org/PlanesAndPilotsOfWW2/Fisher.html

The Spitfire will definitely prevent the K4 from fighting in the horizontal but the Germans still have a strong advantage in the vertical. The P-51's only chance is fighting in the horizontal even though the K4 is better. This would make it even worse for the P-51 as it has no chance in competing in the vertical.

P-47D-30 is going to have a more difficult time dog fighting the K4 and D9 compared to the Spitfire. I'd still buy the P-47 even if it were a Razorback xD. You can't stop people from buying their favourite planes even if they are at a huge disadvantage. Most players like to turn and burn down low, so the Spitty is going to probably be top dog in a fur ball. The problem is when you meet a K4 or especially D9 that knows what they're doing :P.

Zunzun sent me a PM, for some reason he couldn't post on the forums so i'm going to be his voice for now. :P "Hi! But regarding rate of roll of "N", in my copy of "Thunderbolt from serversky to victory" of W. Body states on pg 403 that the p-47N-1-RE has better roll capabilities than the p-47 D-28 model and that could turn with it. On page 333 says the x-p47N (the prototype) had a rate of roll of 98deg/sec at 300mph. The test was done at a gross weight of 16300 pounds with the xp-47N having a rate of 100 deg-sec at 250mph (15 deg faster than the -2 and at 300mph IAS was 21 deg/sec better. Do not know how different was this prototype to the final production model but as I point above it does says that the N-1 rolled better than the -28 Hope that help."

I'm saying if you compare the P-47N to the M and N at comparable fuel loading hence why I applied the useful load of the P-47M with the P-47N, you'll get plane with a lower wing loading and faster rate of roll. The P-47N is really only 576 lbs heavier than the M, when comparing empty weights. Obviously a fully loaded 16,000 lb+ plane isn't going to be very maneuverable compared to a 13,000 lbs+ plane. :P. My weights are with 6 .50 cals, regardless as their performance would degrade proportionally.

The P-47N actually rolled faster than the D and M, it was the extra weight of fuel in the wings that degraded its roll rate. I can't find my source on the P-47N's roll rate, but it was said to be faster than the P-47D-30's. The P-47D-30's roll rate was around 85 degrees/second vs IIRC P-47N's 100+ degrees/second. The gap between the N's roll rate and D's roll rate increased as speed increased. Also The P-47N with equivalent fuel as the M also had a lower wing loading. The only advantage for the for M would be top speed and a slightly faster rate of climb. Empty weight P-47N 10,998 lbs P-47M 10,422 lbs If you apply the same Useful load of the P-47M on the N, since the N carries a ridiculous amount of fuel... Gross weight P-47N 13,850 lbs(M's Useful load) P-47M 13,275 lbs Wing loading P-47N 42.92 lb/sq ft P-47M 44.25 lb/sq ft

Yes the P-47 is the faster fighter above 8000m. The spotted black line is an early P-47D razor back @ 2300hp. The brown and black lines are later P-47Ds producing ~2600hp.

P-47D-30 vs Current DCS fighters http://m.imgur.com/Qo0se47

The exact same thing is said with a P-38 pilot, don't screw with any of the controls when you enter compressibility. [ame] [/ame]

"Moreover, now TFC has no P-47 in its hangar..." This message was from 4 months ago, things may have changed. I can imagine the P-47 tanking a few more 20mm, but either way a K4 with it's high explosive basket ball launching gun is going to make short work of even the most durable aircraft. :) The P-47 will definitely shine at high altitudes, 8000m+, but all of the dogfights in the game take place at lower altitudes. Maybe with the introduction of AI B-17s will we be actually seeing some high altitude dogfights. I'm more excited about the firepower of 8x.50 cals with a crap ton of ammo. 32 seconds compared to that of the mustangs 20 seconds(not including inboard guns).

The problem with the P-47D-30 is, surprisingly that there isn't enough data... "We could not find enough authentic wind tunnel information for this plane, so I am not sure that the plane will be as authentically tailored as our previous WWII and modern planes. These are our strict quality requirements. So we had to lay the 3D model to the upper shelf and switched to Spit." This is shame considering that many others are waiting for this plane too. This is some what depressing considering that I've literally got nothing forward to look to(when it comes to other simulators and games) other than this plane xD. Yes, the P-47D-30 will be easily outclassed by the Bf-109K4 and Fw-190D9 in the current meta, but its still my favourite plane :P.

As stated by GrapJam, the comparisons should be that of a Fw-190A-8 and Spitfire Mk IXc. The "hopelessly" outclassed F4F maintained such a Win to loss ratio because of the exact same reason the Fw-190 was so effective against the Spitfire. Initially American pilots whom were very inexperienced(relative to the Japanese) were using Turn and Burn tactics against the Japanese, this is why the F4F was getting its butt handed to it initially. Later American pilots learned not to dog fight the Zero, of any other Japanese plane, for that matter. American pilots flew the F6F the same way the Germans flew the Fw-190. They flew strictly by their advantages. BTW, when I mean dog fighting I mean turning and burning. The Zero and Spitfire may have had the edge in turning, acceleration and rate of climb, but the Fw-190 and F6F had the advantages of diving, zooming, and high speed agility(light control surfaces, like the Ailerons and Elevator). This allowed them to out maneuver their opponents at higher speeds. These factors allow the Fw-190 and F6F the ability to determine how the fight is played... they can play the aggressor while the Spitfire and Zero are forced to play the defender. The large dive and speed advantage gives the Fw-190 and F6F to dive away at will and leaving the Spitfire and Zero in the dust... assuming they've got altitude to do so. Now back to the Fw-190D-9 and Spitfire Mk IX. :) These exact advantages that were held by the Fw-190 Antons series are now even more prominent with the Dora.

Sure the Mk IX was faster at higher altitudes, but the Anton still kept its speed advantage at lower altitudes. In the current multiplayer setting, the edge would be with the Fw-190 since all dog fights are on the deck. The advantage will only be more obvious because the Dora was much faster than the Anton at all altitudes. The Spitfire's massive acceleration and rate of climb advantage will be diluted with the Fw-190D-9's MW-50s. I wouldn't go as far as to say the Dora was not intended as a low altitude bird. Considering it was used for covering Me-262s taking off and landing. The Dora's top speed on the deck is really only rivaled by the Tempest V, or a P-51 with 150 octane, two of which we do not have in game. http://i.imgur.com/Qo0se47.png

That is true, but to any pilot that knows how to properly fly a Dora will have no issue with a Spitfire :). A plane that is 40mph slower than a Dora is relatively pretty much at a stand still xD. Then you take into account for zoom and dive capabilities...

These photos were posted on p-47 thunderbolt Facebook group Caption: "3D Scanning the belly of the P-47M at Yanks Air Museum in Chino. This is airplane is very original and should provide some great information for other restorations." Comments from the uploader: "Our company AirCorps Aviation doing the scanning for use on a Razorback P-47 we are restoring to original airworthy condition. We do the scanning for hire for any restoration." "The large square targets are reference for a camera that ties together all small targets and is calibrated from a bar and L shaped piece which are standards. The scanning system can then hold a tolerance of a few thousandths of an inch over 40 feet. We can see scratches in the metal and read head markings in rivets and fasteners. It's amazing!"