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Warthog stick bases definitely have various degree of stiction, smoothness and centre "free play" . Some are lucky and have gotten much better feeling units than other. I had two bases, both with quite a lot of stiction, but were otherwise smooth. I sanded the plastic parts and used Nyogel, but that's quite an invasive procedure, you can easily ruin your base. A friend bought a unit with really gritty feel, but didn't really understand what stiction is until I showed him. He got a refund for that stick, but lost a lot of money for shipping.

What about getting it custom made from local machinist? Just the 2 - 3 mm steel plate with 4 countersunk holes, and you spray it black and glue some rubber cabinet feet? And you can have it made a bit bigger than Thrustmasters to make it more stable? Other than that, two cheap C-clamps would make the stock base completely immovable, especially if you use harder rubber feet instead of suction cups. But it's a bit awkward to install / uninstall them every time.

Short review of Winwing Orion F-16EX throttle by RedKite:

I have seen just one report of stiction of Winwing Orion joystick base (on Discord), but I think the user opened up the base, found out the screws that hold cams weren't tightened properly and sorted it out. And I've read that some have had stiction or even grinding problems with throttle arms, but it was usually clearly an improperly tightened or askew mechanism. I must say my unit doesn't have any problems, the stick is really butter smooth. My Thrustmaster Warthog had quite a bit of stiction (if i stopped moving the stick and then wanted to advance, it really needed quite a lot of extra force), but sanding all the plastic parts and lubricating them with Nyogel 767A really helped with this and added viscous damping (a bit of "hydraulic" resistance to the jittery movement). Right now I haven't opened or messed with Winwing Orion joystick base, and compared to my Warthog it is really very easy to move. Especially from the centre position (due to the Warthog's strong centering force of strong spring and gimbal geometry), but even in other positions it lacks the damping the Nyogel 767A provides in Warthog. I don't miss it right now, I might begin to experiment later on - you can dampen the movements of Orion stick by lubricating all the sliding surfaces with Nyogel - interfaces of washers and cams etc., not by lubricating surface between cam and bearing as some have tried. But Winwing springs aren't weak - cam geometry provides quite linear increase of force, as you can see from diagrams above, and stick forces are generally greater than in Warthog when you're over 50% of deflection, and at extremes you're quite a bit above Warthog force. But even very close to maximum input you can "draw nice circles", there is no binding, roughness, stickiness... I don't have any experience with Virpil or VKB stick bases, but I can't imagine greater smoothness. But Orion has no adjustability, only one spring force, no damping or friction adjustment, and large throw (20 degrees to every side), so it's perhaps not suitable for stick extensions, unless you don't mind soft spring forces with weakly defined centre and axis lines.

Yes, the manual states that it is compatible, also the store says: "Compatible with other winwing throttle grip." But of course this is true only for F-18 grips. For F-16 throttle handle - throttle grip itself fits, but the rails don't, since the base is shorter. So you would have to DIY the mounting.

First short part of a review by Grim Reapers. It only covers unboxing:

And another chart, I wondered if there's something to see in larger resolution chart. All charts previously had data points at every degree. Like this one, Winwing vs. Thrustmaster, force in kg. vs. deflection, movement to the right: I have gathered data points for movement to back for both sticks at half degree resolution, also with bigger chart: [img]https://i.imgur.com/v4YPJiT.jpg[/img Even at half degree of resolution we see how sharp the increase of force is in Thrustmaster. The non-linearity of graph is perhaps due to handheld measuring, and also the speed of pull vs. the speed of refresh on measuring scale. I could get more accurate results by constructing a jig which would hold the scales and pull it back on rails with linear rail screw. But I don't think I would gain anything relevant by that, and it would take a lot of time.

Some more results, this time I'm comparing forces between straight back pulls and diagonal back / right pulls of Winwing Orion F-18 stick and Thrustmaster Warthog base + Hornet stick. Results are for unextended sticks. I was really interested in these results, since base mechanisms couldn't be more different. Winwing Orion uses one cam + spring for each axis: And the result, blue line represents diagonal pull. Distance (and angle) to the corner is of course greater than distance to the side, and so is the force: Thrustmaster Warthog gimbal is unique, spherical gimbal makes the direction of pull largely irrelevant. But pulling to the corner still results in longer travel / greater angle (blue line). Difference in percentages: To pull Winwing stick to the corner you have to compress both X and Y springs, but at an angle, so it's not simple addition of both spring forces (that would result in about 3 kg of force)... Max force for right pull is 1.44 kg (at 18 degrees when it reaches max value), max force for back / right pull is 2,195 kg - 52% more. In contrast max force right pull of Thrustmaster is 1.425 kg, max force for back / right pull is 1.415 kg - about the same. If you look at the curve you do need a bit more force to move the stick to the corner, before the force starts to increase (probably due to the thicker PTFE ring that restricts movements at the extremes somewhat) - but only a bit more. So the numbers show clearly what I feel when moving the sticks. With Warthog you really don't feel any axes - it does not matter in which direction you pull the stick, force is the same. This has it's pluses - crossing axis line isn't problematic - if you remember Thrustmaster Cougar hard transitions you know what I'm talking about. The negative is that you can't feel if you're pulling just on the X or just on the Y axis. Is this a problem? Usually no, you compensate by moving the stick if the reaction isn't what you intended. The only hard transition in whole range of motion is centre spot, into which the stick "falls" and needs a lot of force to move out of. Even with extended Warthog transitioning over the centre isn't smooth. With Winwing Orion stick you do feel separate X and Y axes, and you can by feel pull joystick just on one axis. But in contrast with Thrustmaster Cougar the transition is really soft, so it's not problematic when moving from one side to the other, even for small movements when flying in formation or AAR. Of course the feel changes with extended stick - extra 11 cm makes the forces when transitioning the axis line even weaker so it's easier to accidentally pull a bit off the axis - but you still feel it, so the error is usually small (compared to Warthog where you can veer quite far from the axis by accident). And finally, comparison of Winwing diagonal pull to Thrustmaster diagonal pull: We can see that Winwing forces are weaker near the centre, but they overtake the Warthog before the midpoint, and are much higher in corner: 2.195 kg vs 1.415 kg (a bit from the corner Thrustmaster needs just 1.165 kg). Almost twice the force! This is also the reason why Winwing Orion, although sold with suction cups and marketed as desktop joystick, is really much better solidly mounted. And although a lot of people are saying Thrustmaster Warthog has too high spring force, this I think targets steep force increase in first 3- 5 degrees, not force at maximum deflection - Winwing is in comparison very smooth and easy to reposition.

A bit soon, they have been sending them only since January 20., and the only ones that received them live very close by, and have not had the time to write a review. There were units sent for Youtube reviews, but I don't believe they will be online very soon, reviewers usually take their time. With Taurus / Super Libra they were sent so far ahead of release they made a lot of changes and improvements, so the reviewers basically reviewed the prototype units which were not really reflective of experience people ordering production units had. They didn't make the same mistake with Hornet Orion and now with F-16. Also, 5-way button and axis add-on on the left can be removed to use the stick as F-16 replica.

Insides are now well documented, a lot of people had to disassemble their sticks and throttles for repairs. In some ways they are of course much better than anything produced by Thrustmaster. Throttle arms, joystick gimbals made out of solid aluminium, gimbals have steel shafts and proper ball bearings. On the other side wiring in stick grips is kind of messy - Thrustmaster Warthog and Hornet grips are a bit better in this regard - it is similar to old Cougar one. All the buttons are stabilised by hot glue, but same is true for Thrustmaster, Winwing is just a bit more messy. There were some reports of failing 5-way buttons at the beginning of Orion sales, they have presumably changed their supplier of buttons to a more reliable one. Aluminium that Winwing makes grips and bases of can also be problematic, you can strip the threads almost as easily as with pot metal from Thrustmaster, you have to be careful. Lack of documentation for repairs is also a bit problematic. Their support allegedly sends you buttons to do the repairs with basically no information on how to do that, or with single sentence instructions (open the base, replace the button). Some things are quite straightforward, like replacing grip buttons, their wires have connectors, but for instance buttons on throttle base require you to unsolder the old button from PCB and solder the new one on. But again same is true for some Thrustmaster Warthog throttle base buttons, but usually if they fail, Thrustmaster replaces the whole unit (if you are within warranty), or just tells you that they don't provide this replacement part. Buying replacement parts (like buttons) if you damage them yourself is also not very painless procedure - parts are cheap, but allegedly the only shipping option is FedEx which can be $50 for a single button...

I didn't unplug anything, and I use external audio / USB preamp... I think it's meant more of a "If you experience any problems, this is the first thing you can try."

Never heard that it is too stiff, some people mention that it is too soft (near center) for extension or mounting Thrustmaster grips (which you can with adapter), so many have opted for Super Lubra base instead. It is "too stiff" for the suction cups if your desk isn't smooth as glass and cleaned, it's really meant to be mounted. Or at least screwed to a larger base. I find it very good for my taste - if it would be stiffer near center it would surely loose some smoothness it now has.

I have my Warthog since 2010, low serial number, I have repaired it several times, replaced some switches, sanded the joystick base gimbal and lubricated it with Nyogel 767A (and then repeated the process when I replaced the gimbal), installed teflon ring instead of rubber one, replaced throttle slew with Deltasimelectronics one, lubricated throttle bearings... I bought the Hornet grip and replaced the Weapon Select switch twice (the replacement switch was also busted)... So I think it's now better than new even though I'm using it for 12 years! Of course buyers wouldn't see it like that, and prices here in Europe are quite low, right now you can get it new for around 400 EUR. So I think I'll rather keep it. Maybe one day it will be more sought after - I sold my Thrustmaster Cougar three years ago for much more I paid a long, long time ago.

No, I think they hurried a bit with this "release" since one of the testers already started posting blurry photos.

Soon.

I'd also like to mention a few negative points of Winwing Orion. Metal castings are obviously hand finished on some edges. On some stick and throttle grips I've seen in photos this is really nicely done, but on mine it looks quite rough in places: I have asked hte Winwing support about that, and they answered: "It's normal and intended design." Ok. "Not great, not terrible." It's apparently draw of luck if yours was done by skilled worker or by a rookie. Also, the throttle came with it's front slider (A3) rubbing on something the front movement. Support suggested I disassemble the slider mechanism and sand the part under the nut that provides friction, but after a bit of inspection I discovered the slider actually rubs on the left side of the cut-out of the upper plate, so I just loosened the two screws that hold it to the top, pushed it to the right a bit, and tightened them - that repaired the rubbing completely.

Fifth and sixth chart show just the symmetry of Winwing Orion joystick, left and right movement in same chart, first joystick value vs. deflection, second shows force in kg. vs. deflection. I was quite interested in that, since Virpil has some problems with it's joystick base MongoosT-50CM2 which uses single cam per axis, like Winwing Orion. The difference from max. left force (1.35 kg) to max. right force (1. 44 kg) is only 6.6%. Some Virpil users reported 50% and more of a difference, Virpil was offering free replacement of cams. And lastly for now, symmetry of Thrustmaster Warthog stick, left and right movement in same chart, first joystick value vs. deflection, second shows force in kg. vs. deflection. We can see very symmetrical forces needed just until the end (that bit isn't very reliably measured). I was surprised, since the mechanism includes lots of sliding of plastic against plastic, plastic against metal rods, I had hand sanded various surfaces inside...

Third and fourth charts are Winwing stick with 11 cm extension and Warthog stick with 15 cm extension, again movement to the right, first measuring joystick value vs. deflection, second force in kg. vs. deflection: Joystick values show same story as with unextended sticks - Winwing has a deadzone, and it maxes out before the stick hits it's limit. But the fourth chart is interesting. Warthog again shows this sharp increase of needed force, and then it completely levels. This is of course also result of measuring the forces quite slowly - I pulled very slowly and took about 10 seconds to deflect the stick from 0 to 20 degrees - if I would be quicker, there would be also the resistance of Nyogel showing in Warthog chart, it resists and damps quick movement. And the forces needed with unextended vs. extended sticks? We see that Winwing needs 1.44 kg, but with extension only 0.84 kg to reach maximum value (not maximum deflection). Force is almost halved. And Warthog needs 1.425 kg unextended (with sharp rise at the end, this could be effect of teflon ring), but with extension only 0.56 kg! This is probably also the effect of heavy grip on a 15 cm extension - some people use stronger springs (such as those offered by Sahaj) - but I don't know how that would affect the "breakout" force near the center.

Since most of the basic stuff was already covered to death by various Youtube reviews, I intended to describe the feeling of Winwing F-18 stick base, compared to Thrustmaster Warthog stick with Hornet grip. Since descriptions like "Winwing feels softer" are very vague, I tried to put it into numbers - to measure the force needed to deflect the joystick. But just measuring the force needed to fully deflect the stick tell just one thing. Most of you are aware of unique gimbal Warthog base uses - it requires quite a lot of force to move the stick from it's zero position. So I tried to represent this visually. Of course I don't have any professional equipment for measurement, but simple "baggage scale" (or fishing scale, or even bow draw weight scale) is usable for this. Most of them are accurate to 5 gram under 10 kg of force, I bought one that has scale which would face the camera when filmed, and which had option to turn off the "lock" mode, so the scale doesn't suddenly decide it's done measuring. Measuring the forces, image is underexposed, so the dispays are visible. I used old simple VKB JoyTester so I could record the axis value and check that I'm deflecting joystick exactly on the axis - this was quite simple for the Winwing but very hard for Warthog due to it's gimbal. Also a note, Warthog had all the parts of gimbal sanded, cleaned and lubricated with Nyogel 767A, and it has teflon ring instead of rubber ring - this constricted movement of stick a bit in the extremes, especially in the corners. So I recorded videos, in pairs for backup and check of accuracy, for all 4 sides of both joysticks and also two diagonals, and I also did all this twice - once again for joysticks with extensions. On Winwing I used it's original extension in it's shortest form (11 cm), on Warthog I used carbon fibre 15 cm extension. And then copied values from video to spreadsheet, and make a chart. So, some interesting results: First chart (I chose joystick movement to the right) shows joystick value vs. deflection - It's just a test if sensors are linear. Here we can see that Winwing comes with a bit of a deadzone, about 1 degree. as we will see, to the left and to the right. - Edit: this deadzone is on by default, but you can change the size of deadzone, even to zero in SimApp Pro Winwing software: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/291199-winwing-orion-hotas-review/?do=findComment&comment=4929823 Also, stick moves to 20 degrees, but sensor maxes out at 18 degrees - and it was calibrated after firmware update. Second chart shows force in kg. vs. deflection. It would be wrong to say that you need 1.735 kg to deflect Winwing fully to the right - last two degrees of movement aren't registered, you only need 1.44 kg for maximum deflection. Interesting thing is the extreme steep rise of force needed to move Warthog from zero position, and then very linear forcefro 2 degrees to about 18 degrees. I didn't expect it would show so clearly.

Old school reviews with photos are apparently a lost art, new hardware mostly just gets Youtube review by people who were given items for free. To break with this tradition I give you a short review with link to lots of photos of my Winwing Orion HOTAS F-18. I have ordered my unit on December 8., when Winwing announced their big discount - it was offered for $500 before, but this time they lowered it to $400 (this offer is still running as of mid January, but most of the time the shop has no stock). I also ordered an extension, although site has a warning: "Only use with Super Libra joystick base" - several users have reported using it without problems. Extension is $50, and it also raises the shipping cost quite a bit - shipping HOTAS with FedEx to EU costs about $80, with extension this increases to $113. I won't bore you with the shipping delays, I got my unit after one month - but after that time it arrived with apology form FedEx, without any customs fee and without VAT, so I'm not complaining too much. I already have a working Thrustmaster Warthog, and since November also the Hornet stick, so this is the perfect opportunity to compare these two HOTAS systems. Links to photoalbums (click on the link for Google Photo album with lots of images in higher resolution): 1. Winwing Orion unboxing 2. Winwing Orion Assembly 3. Winwing Orion HOTAS 4. Winwing Orion stick 5. Winwing Orion stick extension 6. Winwing Orion throttle 7. Winwing Orion and Thrustmaster Warthog with Hornet 8. Winwing Orion throttle repair This concludes the first part. :)

If you use the switches on the forward part of the throttle base for their labelled use, you don't operate them in afterburner, or even full military.

It's getting closer!

Paddles on F-16 stick and on add-on are axes, can be of course configured as buttons. And add-on has an analog stick?

From Discord: The picture comes from the online shop of one of WINWING's distributors in mainland China "Rumble Pak" inside of F-16 grip?

As far as I have seen, yes. But you can check that in Winwing Shop before making an order. And I think buyers from USA should use FOX2STUDIO store: https://fox2.wwsimstore.com/STORE Instead of WWSIMSTORE: https://www.wwsimstore.com/STORE But I've read on Discord that there is nothing wrong with ordering from either of them.