MacThai_75

I remember just how fast we went from brick sized cell phones to shirt pocket sized smart devices. This is fun!! :)

Also, apparently some people have noticed that the when the camera is rig mounted it's actual pointing can change when the rig motion get's bumpy/jerky because there is no way to actually lock down the tilt function of the camera's mount. This was reported on racing sites that are using CV1s with motion rigs, and if you have sensitivity settings for flight that is always smooth, the following might not be needed. On my stationary rig I'm using only the short section of the camera's stem attached on a tripod dual adjustable axis adapter like this (that I had in my photography junk drawer). By using a piece of 1/2" dia PVC tubing to go around the short CV1 camera stem, cut to the proper length so that when I secure the CV1 camera to that adapter mounted on a motion rig, it will jam against the adapter top plate and the camera housing, so the camera can no longer tilt. Then I'll just use the adapters dual axis knobs to point the camera. That should prevent it from changing it's aim when the rig moves in any kind of quick or choppy manner. You might be able to do the same thing with just a piece of small diameter, thick walled foam pipe insulation that's cut somewhat longer than the CV1 camera's stem, so that when mounted the foam get compressed enough to holds the camera so it won't tilt, but you'll have to have a base plate that allows for proper the aim. I've read some guys get the camera aimed at the base of the stem by various means/adapters, and then just use duct tape to keep the camera from tilting, but IMHO ... that's a pretty ineloquent solution. ;)

Yes, I think the a G-seat mounted on a 2DoF motion platform with the possible addition of a SimX $1300 yaw system would be cost effective and offer an ideal "dollar per immersive experience performance". As you may know @Frusheen is doing an amazing job on a G-Seat for helicopters. His work is excellent and inspirational, as well as providing some very good lessons/tips, so I'm hoping for more posts from him as he proceeds with it. :thumbup: You can see it here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2733045#post2733045 I'm also hoping that the rest of my rig gets out of customs and delivered soon ... or if ever!! :cry: In the meantime ... I would like to mention that I had emailed Oculus about things that can confuse the CV1's positional tacking recently, and posted the results of that contact earlier in this thread. When you say "the camera mounted on the rig will sometimes cause the tracking to go wild" has me thinking about what Oculus said in their reply to me. And I'm wondering if when the camera being mounted on the rig and moving when it should normally be stationary, is picking up stray IR reflections as it moves about when the rig pitches and rolls, that it might be causing it to interpret them as pilot/HMD positional movement in the cockpit, and changing the POV. So ... could you do me a favor and place a toilet paper roll' tube, or some other type of paper etc. tube over your camera, so as to act like a camera sun shield ... just a tube that blocks out light from outside of the intended target area ... in our case just the cockpit. It might take some experimentation with the length of the light shield tube to get the camera to 'just' see the HMD's IR leds, and no other extraneous IR reflections. Also, although more troublesome, if you could move your rig to another area, or maybe just rotate it a bit in case something behind or off to the sides is reflecting IR ... just to see if the symptoms change at all. Obviously any mirrors or other reflective objects in the close proximity to the camera should probably be avoided. It might just be a wild goose chase, but like I said (and posted earlier in this thread) Oculus 'did' caution about reflected IR as a cause for poor positional tracking. So it might be worth the trouble to experiment a little. ;)

I agree ... but I'm not sure what you mean by "limits of the Oculus system". It is full 6DoF (both rotational and positional tracking) with unlimited angular travel on any axis, so I'm not really sure what that means unless you mean going outside the range of the camera ... which I suppose could happen if it was mounted off rig ... especially if the line of sight was blocked by the rig as it moved. But other than that ... :dunno: IMHO: The limits are there because of any given person's ability to how well they can match up to the (impossible) full 6DoF HMD on a given motion rig, with their head's travel in angular movement. And I believe that's the real and only issue. If you could swivel your head in a full sphere that would match the CV1, there would be no problem at all. But ... we obviously can't do that, and different people will have different experiences (as has been reported by different motion rig/VR users). So the difference between a positive and negative experience with tracking would appear to be based on how far a rider can swivel their heads, and if they have matched the rigs motion travel to those limits, which are probably much easier on pitch than roll for most. As far as the speed of the movement ... with a rig mounted camera, as long the acceleration does not exceed the ability of the camera to track the HMD's spacial movement (where it is located in space) nor the the HMD's mounted sensors that track spherical rotation, then all is good. I would be willing to bet that the speed needed to out pace either the positional and/or rotational tracking is well beyond the average human and commercially available motion rig. ;) On an off rig mounted system .. it should still all work fine, but will require the rider to have even more head tilt ability and/or more reduced rig motion. My theory as to why it even works at all is because we humans have a sense of balance via our inner ears, and we can see a target/place in space with our eyes. As the rig pitches down the HMD image will also pitch down, and if we held our head stiff we would see towards our knees in the HMD. But we automatically try to keep looking at the same place in space, so at the same time as the rig moves down we compensate by tilting our head up at the same rate and the HMD image remains level ... until such time that we can no longer match the angular travel of the rig with our head tilt. My rig isn't here yet so I can't test this theory, but anyone with a motion rig and CV1 can. Simply adjust the rig's travel to optimum results for no error tracking while wearing the HMD. Then try it again with the same settings but with HMD alone strapped to the seat so it can't move. I believe the tracking will then suffer when it didn't before, because the HMD will then obviously be doing exactly as what others in this thread say it will do, because they may not have taken into consideration the ability of the rider using his head movement to naturally ... and even unconsciously keep the image in the HMD pointing where he/she wants to look by simply tilting their head and compensating for the rig's movement. But once the rig moves beyond the ability of the rider to keep up with the rig's angular travel by tilting, rotating and stretching their head/neck (assuming a 6Dof rig) then things will go bad. That's my theory as to what's happening, and the explanation for the mixed reviews on the different forums that discuss VR and motion rigs, and I think it's good that I only ordered an inexpensive 2 DoF rig, and plan to stack a G-Seat on it. Minimize rig movement to that which will comfortably match my head tilt ability, and since it has no heave axis, there will be no need to stretch my neck (thankfully! ;) ) but the advantages of the G-Seat will continue to fill in for the limited rig travel, as well as the fake the other axis ... by its continued synthesis of motion on all axis, combining for a full and better 6DoF experience. The rig plus a G-seat, instead of just a G-Seat is 'only' because I just can't get past my intuitive feeling that a 2DoF motion rig will add significantly more enhancement to a G-Seat experience, than what the additional $1650 price of the motion rig is. The only other adder I might try is the SimX yaw system which is basically just a very low profile 'T' shaped slider system that a motion rig sits on to add yaw with not a lot of actual angular movement.

I'll be happy with the amount of pitch and roll that the guy in the 18+ minute race viddy in post #114 (that I posted above) is getting ... or possibly even less. I don't think I'll need (or might even want) anything more than what he is successfully getting over the entire viddy. He's using the same rig I have coming (a Dynamic Kit Pro) with the same SimTools for it, along with SimTools game specific plugins. I guess the real question is why does it work for him, and others here that have tried it with a few different rigs, control SW, and DCS, Vs why it didn't work for you? Possibly it was the specific configuration you used? What motion rig did you use, with what control program, and how did you mount your camera, etc.? Maybe there's a hint to be found in that information as to why it works well for some, then only so-so for some, and apparently not at all for others. (???) If people that have posted it being unsuccessful could post what rig/SW combo ... it might help to know ... if only to avoid that type of rig, and conversely for people that got it to work, and to what degree (no pun intended). Or ... if the people that have never actually experienced one, but know technically that it wont work, might explain in lay persons terms 'specifically' why the pitching and rolling in the race viddy above works, but if it was a flight sim, it would not work the same ... even with it limited to the same degree of roll and pitch he is experiencing in the viddy. His straight and level view through the left side of the windshield is the same at the end of viddy as it is at the beginning when he starts the race, and it remains the same through the race except for times that he turns his head ... but it returns back to the same view when he looks straight again, as it also basically does when he holds his head level during curves, acceleration and braking, although the rig is pitching and rolling all about. So ignoring flight, how specifically does the CV1 work just for only 'that' racing roll and pitch? Then ... what specifically makes that different from a flight sim that moves roll and pitch to the same amount of angular travel? Ignoring the going vertical issue (which the rig below seems to handle nicely) ... if a rig like the one below (which BTW is using DCS) and looks to have about the same amount of limited travel as the race rig above (but moving much smoother) ... why would it not work as well as the race rig if the pilot was using A CV1? Not meaning to be argumentative, but I'm having a difficult time getting my mind around why there is any difference at all, when the position in space of the HMD is via the camera, and the roll and pitch of the HMD are via the HMD's own internal gyro/accelerometer/magetometer feeding it's IMU with it's roll and pitch's axial rotation (and the acceleration of same) data, as well as possibly actual magnetic heading data ... the same way when used in either racing or flight applications. How the heck does the camera and/or HMD generated signals know you rolling and pitching an aircraft Vs rolling and pitching a vehicle? :dunno: For now I'm stickin' with my chicken ... theory. ;)

^^^ That makes sense too. And if you could tilt ... and stretch you neck more (for heave) like the chicken ... you may be able to compensate for more tilt in a motion rig before the rig's tilt exceeds your head's tilt ability, and things start to go Elvis. ;) One thing that VR adds to the sim experience, is that it already simulates motion on a stationary rig, so setting a rig's angular travel limits with 'just' enough to add to the experience, but limited to whatever it takes to keep it working properly, might provide better overall results than trying to make a VR motion rig into a carnival ride. (???) All of this is one reason I wanted to go cheap, and got the $1650 delivered DKP 2DoF rig. Now ... if the second box (it was a two package shipment) will just get out of customs in NY and deliverd to me, I'll get to actually test my theory and see it it can stand up to the light of day. If it's a bust for VR ... as many that I have a lot of respect for say it will, then I don't have thousands tied up in it. If it does work as well as some have reported, then I'll get a more expensive rig ... but one that will have specs (and price) that match the needs, as opposed to "more is better" WRT things like maximum travel and etc. As indicated, a VR motion rig with more DoF, travel ... especially heave travel, than I can stretch my neck or tilt my head, might be wasted money for VR use. For just VR flight, the G-Seat as a commercialy available package might be a big seller! :) But if you want a dual flight 'and' race rig, then a motion platform set with the appropriate amount of limited travel for each, saved in separate files ... might work well enough for both.

... Or maybe it's just cuz we all be genetically chicken disposed .... :) If you look at the driver in the viddy a couple of posts above, that's using a CV1 and rig mounted camera ... you'll see at the first hard braking the rig pitches down and forward, but the viddy stays level ... as does his head. This is repeated throughout the viddy. I suspect that as long as a motion rig with VR does not roll or pitch beyond the travel of a rider's angular head movement (in pitch and/or roll) the VR tracking will work just fine, but if you have a rig that has motion beyond your ability to tilt your head to compensate (as we humans naturally do) I suspect that the video will tilt. That 'might' explain why people are finding no issues with either an on rig, or off rig mounted camera as some have emphatically reported. IOW: If you strap your head to the seat back you may find that the tilt is seen right away ... and full 6DOF might not be what you want in a VR motion rig. Anyway ... once (read IF) my rig gets here I'll do some testing and post the results. P.S. If you don't like/agree with this post and think it's just too far fetched ... you at least gotta love the chicken viddy. ;) Strap a camera to a chickens head, add a perch to you dirt bike's handlebars ... and get you some really stable no multi-axis gimbal required GoPro viddys! :)

Everyone that I see that's actually 'using' one says there is no issue tracking with the rift on a motion rig, and that it works just like it's on a stationary rig ... and the different videos of people using a motion rig with VR while getting tossed about in a vehicle sim, looks to be doing just fine too. I haven't come across any flight VR motion rigs viddys yet, so if you get a chance please do post up a youtube! :) My DKP motion rig is hung up in the never-never land of US customs ... but if it ever gets out (and I can figure out the pitch roll as you go inverted thing) I'll be surprised if I see the tracking error that theory does seem to say it should see. Possibly because the theory doesn't account for something in the rift that makes it work exactly as you and others have found ... by actually trying it. (???) Really looking forward to your complete review, and certainly more on the roll (and I assume pitch) when rolling or pitching past inverted. :)

^^^ +1 on the disappear when not over clickables!!

Well, as I earlier indicated ... I ordered one of these Dynamic Kit Pro 2DoF motion cockpits for use with my CV1 for racing sims ... as this guy in the video is successfully doing, and hopefully for flight sims as well. It came from Ukraine in two boxes. One box was delivered last week after a loooong multi-week wait, but the other package is stuck in what I find by googling the tracking info that says "Your item has been processed through our facility in ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS)" really means that ... and I quote Harrison Ford from 6 Days and 7 Nights ... :(

I'm still waiting for the last box to clear customs in NY and make it to me in California. The first box with the main frame got here on Wed, but the last box with the electronics and motors is showing no movement since the 10'th. The tracking number status for that box says "Your item has been processed through our facility in ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS)." When I google what that means ... some of what I read really doesn't look very good at all. :( I have been in comms with another person that bought at the same time as I, and he is seeing the same thing. He also received the box with with just frame parts, but the box with the arduino/pwr supply, it's case, cords and etc., and the motors ... as well as the hardware and some additional frame parts, is MIA in the system like mine is. So .... I'm waiting with fingers crossed.

My DKP motion seat will be here soon, and I'm sort of thinking out loud here. It is my understanding that for optimum performance you need to make setting adjustments for SimTools to compensate for different weights of different pilots. If that is as burdensome as it initially appears, I might try something else .... The DKP's are rated at ~330lbs capacity, so my plan is to set it up for the max weight I expect to use, then to avoid having to reset SimTools up for other weights, I'll just make up some canvas bags holding shotgun shot in, say ... 10 lbs each. Then I'll hang a regular car seat back organizer off my rig's seat, and add the appropriate number of 10 lb bags of shot in the organizer's lower pockets, to act as ballast to keep the same weight for people of all weights, and avoid having to redo all the settings for different people of different weights. (if that makes sense) ... Not sure how that might work, or even if 10 lbs is the right weight for each of the ballast bags. So .... we'll see! :)

Thanks for the suggestions and also for the FreeTrack comment. :thumbup: I bookmarked it for future reference. Looks like just what I'll need for the PiMAX! :) When my platform gets here I'll be sure to try your suggestions and report what I find. For me this is a learning process (both the platform and IR tracking for the PiMAX) and I hope it ends up befitting others too, so your suggestions are (as always) very welcome. :)

^^^ mai bpen rai :thumbup: Please keep us posted on your project as it develops. I'm all ears for this stuff! :) And be sure to check out Frusheen's G-Seat project here ... https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2733051#post2733051 He's doing some amazing work! :)

Steve, be sure to check out the SimTools thread in the Home Cockpit forum. I put links in there that has info on DIY projects for motion rigs, that may interest you. :)

I was surprised to see that that's an easy to obtain velocity. Even the cheap $800 DK Home rig has .20M/S (200mm/sec) so no problem there. Range of movement might be the biggest factor, but once in a bank, even if motion is stopped you are still feeling the side weight (roll Gs) and the same for pitch, so along with the "motion trickery" that just a HMD provides when there is no actual movement at all, it should make the experience a lot more immersive. But much to your point ... the real confusion will come when (like in the viddy I posted on the previous page) ... the roll goes one way and you go past the seat's movement range, then you roll back but are still outside the seat's max range. You can see that happen just shortly after he goes inverted to the right then rolls back left. He then moves beyond the seat's range in a left roll and then there is a significant bit of a roll shuffling that the seat never seems to responded to ... so hopefully the HMD "motion trickery" will fill in. :dunno: In the end I think it will just boil down to $ per giggle that we're willing to pay! ;) To that effect (no pun intended) I just got word my DKP rig is finished being built and tested, and is now being painted, then packed up for air delivery this week. So depending on how long customs is, I'm thinking late next week/early the following before it shows up in my driveway. As posted before, I will review the entire process from order to first operation. I'm sure I'll need help from the SimTools DCS plugin gurus ... to do the tweaks to get it working optimally. This is a very inexpensive, no frills 2DoF rig, with the "home" version @ $1100 delivered to the USA ($800 plus $300 shipping) and the Pro version is $1650 delivered ($1350 + $300 shipping) out of the Ukraine from http://dynkit.com/en. So if it works as well for flight as it does for racing, it should be fun. :pilotfly:

^^^ yes please!

That's exactly what I mean by marrying a G-Seat with a motion platform. Thanks for posting!! :)

Good stuff, and thanks for posting! I'm sure it will come in very handy when my rig gets here. And once again, really looking forward to your in-depth review of the A3 ... at your leisure. :thumbup:

That would be really cool, and I would guess that might make customs go faster too. Yeah, I plan to do a full review from order to delivery, as well as set-up and etc. once any "honeymoon/inevitable initial frustrations" are over, then post it all here, and amend it if needed as I get more time with, and do more mods to it. So hopefully it doesn't all just tank as a flight rig right out of the chute! ;)

@steve2112, yes ... that's the link to the DK Home and Pro. I 'think' I'll be the first to try a DKP with DCS, but the plugin they use is actually from SimTools (there's a thread in this forum for SimTools info) but you can use other interface software as others have pointed out, that also have DCS plugins. Also, there is another thread in this forum for motion rigs, that has some additional info on the DKP and well as other motion rigs. One guy (mrsparks) just got his Atomic A3 which looks to be one 'r e a l l y' nice rig. A few of us are anxiously awaiting his review of it once he gets some time with it. :) And some have built the G-Seat, which I might be interested in marrying to a 2DoF rig before I add a 3'rd axis like the one Xsim offers, to get yaw ... if it doesn't look like the 2DoF and a G-seat will suffice. The price of the DK rigs makes it at least somewhat reasonable enough to give it all a try.

The DK Home version is just under $900, or about $1100 delivered and the Pro is $1650 delivered, both are 2DoF full motion rigs (both seat and pedals move). Not cheap ... but a good enough price for me to try the Pro for both racing and flight with my CV1. It's a'so very compact for a full motion rig. But until it gets here in the next couple of weeks or so, all I have to go on is what people with them have to say, and with a VR HMD the reviews 'are' mostly for racing. But the reports are good enough for me to give one a try for both racing and flight sim'ing. This is an early version of the DK Pro ... This is a similar rig (gearmotor based platform, as opposed to a linear actuator based rig) with DCS on a flat screen ...

Good to read that it is giving you your money's worth Tonedogg! :) Yeah ... the screen door affects us all, but it sorta fades away after a bit and the trade-off for the immersiveness makes it almost a complete moot point. It sounds like it can pretty much mimic your normal non-HMD equipped eyesight fairly well. That's great news! :)

Congrats mrsparks! We are all very envious. :) Looking forward to the pics and an indepth review when you get a chance and have had some time to wring it all out. The A3 just looks awesome! :) P.S. If you do get a chance to see if you notice any difference between rig or off rig mounted sensor, I would like to see that. I suspect from the reports I've read that it's good to go either way, but a side by side review done on a single rig would be nice. Anyway ... have fun, I know that if I had been able to intercept the delivery ... I sure would! ;)

Samsung Galaxy Note 7 and Gear VR HMD ... JK. :music_whistling: