Baldrick33

My first landing Jester said “are we down yet?”, or something like that. I then read how I was supposed to land and he complained about his back, the next one about retiring on disability and so it went on!

These are some crude captures of the behaviour, in both cases I am simply pulling the stick back and forward. I am using a Virpil CM3 base with Virpil stick, the first is with FFB turned on and the second with FFB off in the Misc Settings tab (note this is just a stick joystick with no ffb) ffb.mp4 no ffb.mp4

Same base and Alpha Prime grip so definitely not hardware. Running MT haven’t tested with ST. Edited to add: What about values in FFTune for pitch? Mine is 100, 50 for trim & shake. I use JoyPro to set controls which has a FFB tab so not sure if this makes any difference?

For me it is really easy to see. FFB on (in Misc) and the stick is centred on the runway, off and it is dropped forward. More subtly as you fly pitch forward and watch the virtual stick move on its own back (FFB off). With FFB on the virtual stick moves as per the physical stick.

I just tried taking off and landing both with FFB on and off (using a spring Virpil stick). No trimming. Just watching the AOA needle I found it much easier to maintain an AOA within range with FFB on. With FFB off I would move the stick so the needle moves to the right place then the virtual stick would move so I was constantly chasing it. Comparing back to back there is quite an impact beyond just visual representation of the stick.

Should anti skid not be off during taxiing and then turned on when lined up on the runway though?

@kablamoman thanks for the video, I found that very constructive and adds to an intriguing topic along with the devs comments. A bit of a deviation but I have a powerful enough force feedback steering wheel using an industrial motor that on its highest power can simulate a heavy crash that would do some damage if the driver didn’t remove his hands from the wheel. On realistic settings the wheel will move the hands. This feedback generally helps the driver understand the forces being applied like self aligning torque, so is typically seen as an advantage. That said some don’t like the wheel moving for them and dial down the ffb or run non ffb wheels as it allows for greater precision, some of the fastest drivers use low or non ffb for competition. I can’t imagine having the wheel movements forced upon an ffb user to counter being applied to a non ffb user, the virtual wheel would move independently of the physical one which would seem impossible to control accurately as it wouldn’t be just visual but steering inputs mismatch. if I am understanding the points raised it is a similar issue here, beyond just the visual mismatch of sticks but actual inputs?

Personally I find OpenXR using the SteamVR runtime rather than the Microsoft one smoother. Not to be confused with SteamVR OpenVR which DCS use to use just for the avoidance of doubt.

As a workaround assuming you have a stick, could you not add a modifier and use it to swap the roll and rudder axis whilst pressed, so you can use a rudder axis during take off prior to needing roll?

I love VR but it is far from my 61 year old real vision let alone what a fighter pilot is expected to have! the Phantom is brilliant but there is stuff you just can’t see in certain lighting in VR which I am pretty sure I would in the real cockpit.

Works fine for me with Reverb G1

My experience of following similar discussions in driving and flying sims in VR for close to a decade is just how differently people are wired, be they gamers or real world racers and pilots it matters not. Stuff like locking race sims to horizon or not, amplifying rotation or yaw, force feedback settings (there are a zillion "perfect" settings all different), ideal FOV, VR reprojection, visible virtual bodies and hands. A popular racing sim's simulation of preloading a gear lever is in my mind brilliant. I even took my wife's manual car out (I had an auto at the time) to prove the clutchless synchromesh gearbox modelling was spot on to the naysayers on the forum! - apply pressure on the gear lever, get the rev match right and the gear pops in. In my mind the sim and real life worked much the same. However, many hated it as in their minds instead of thinking preload they saw it as pre-engaging the gear because of the lack of baulk of a real gear lever. Simply press the button and when the right criteria for a gear change (revs or clutch depress) it magically changes gear - nothing like a real gearbox - which of course was true. Modelling without the physical feel of the real thing takes some imagination and that can be a personal thing. the debates went on for years, no one who didn't like it could be persuaded, of course as it isn't just visual the only option is to turn on auto clutch which is a miniscule performance disadvantage. I couldn't comment on whether the simulation of the real Phantom stick is correct other than I firmly believe you guys would have got it right given the knowledge and dedication of your team and track record. However, I also believe that for some people anything other than a 1:1 representation of the movements we make with our controllers will appear "wrong", it is simply how we are wired. Having the option shouldn't change how we fly. It would seem a shame that the work on modelling the visual representation of how the real world stick moves is lost on a group of people who turn it off but I think that is just the nature of how our brains are different.

The F4 quick guide is available for everyone on Chuck’s Patreon site, as ever it is invaluable! https://www.patreon.com/chucksguides

Curious, it works for me.

Have you tried using SteamVR as the OpenXR runtime?

That would seem ideal to me.

For me it is totally visual, it doesn’t change how I feel the aircraft react to my inputs it is purely an immersion factor. Much like a steering wheel where the virtual and physical wheel rotation doesn’t match, or there is a lag between them, it doesn’t make it harder to drive just an annoying immersion breaker. I agree the more I fly the less I notice it as typically we don’t look at the stick, just that when it catches your eye doing something different to what your hands are doing it kind if gets hard to unsee! Regardless the Phantom is fantastic and this is just a minor request from my perspective.

Just downloaded, that was fast!

I don't have any immersion issues with limits being set, e.g. if I pull my stick fully aft but the virtual stick stops short because the pilot wouldn't be able to physically pull it all the way back due to the forces. In my little head I am pulling as hard as I can and the virtual stick is back as far as it will go. What I find a little strange is the stick moving forward or back to mimic my controller movements and then appearing to move on its own as the forces get applied on the stick. I understand why this happens just that it creates an illusion of some kind of assist or double binding. I am sure I can ignore it but it just breaks immersion a little in VR. As an experiment I did try and turn off the stick in Gameplay but it still always shows (with the pilot off)

This is my modded simshaker.lua after using the tool. It may be worth copying this into your Program Files (x86)\SimShaker\SimShaker for Aviators Beta\Data (remove Beta if using Stable) after backing up your existing file of course! SimShaker.lua

Some great explanations of why the stick behaves as it does and hats off to the developers to simulating the behaviour of the system. I think the issue some of us have is that our physical controllers can't replicate the real world stick. It reminds me of the many discussions about how to simulate a gear lever in sim racing when the gear change fails but we have no baulk on our controllers so the gear lever is in on our controller but not in sim. There have been various methods of software solutions - gear grinding noises requiring trying again, assume the driver is still applying pressure to the lever and wait for the conditions to be right rev/throttle wise and so on. No one method is universally accepted! Especially in VR the 1:1 relationship with controls seems paramount for immersion IMHO. In 2D I would always hide the controls as it seems odd having two of them in view. This may seem anathema to the developers who have spent so much time replicating the real world system but I wonder about creating an option to have the stick move directly in relation to the controller but behind the scenes the actual control movement remains as is (much like the fly by wire stick in the Hornet which you can move as you like but the computer decides how much the flight controls are actually moved). It isn't realistic but arguably more immersive given the limitations of our controllers. Right now it feels like there is double binding going on and it messes with my head much like when auto rudders for takeoff gets turned on with reinstalling warbirds!

Is your Windows user an administrator or did you run the program as an admin?

Turning off the deflection options has no apparent impact on the fact the virtual stick does not match the physical controller position. The virtual stick is far forward on the runway when the physical controller is centred for example.

Turned off stick blending and stick deflection limit yet the virtual stick seems to override my stick movements in pitch.

Just run the tool and click on the DCS Mods Support tab. Then click on enable Mods Support for whichever version of SSA you run (Beta or Stable) The tool adds the lines of code to add support for aircraft which aren't yet included and enable generic support (based on the Su-27 settings if I understand it correctly) I just ran it before trying the F-4 and it worked. Note that you will need to run the tool after each update/installation of SSA