EGI?

Hi,

I didn't see EGI (Embedded GPS/INS) listed in the Planned F-16C Systems and Payloads post. Should we expect to see EGI implementation at launch?

This is from the cockpit orientation vid. Dial says "INS" not "EGI," so I'm guessing we're getting INS and not EGI.

This is from the cockpit orientation vid. Dial says "INS" not "EGI," so I'm guessing we're getting INS and not EGI.

 

Sorry I was under the impression that the block that we're getting featured EGI.

I think it has GPS and INS, but not the EGI system.

Yeah, me too, which is why I went and checked the cockpit orientation vid.

What exactly do you guys believe EGI is?

If you are basing it off whether there is a switch or not that says “EGI”, I’m not really sure you guys understand.

IFA means it will have GPS.

There are many techniques you can utilize to get state vector using INS or IRS and radio navigation (GNSS for example).

 

What do you believe EGI is?

My point being I think people get way too spun up over features/systems and whether or not they are in the sims, when the reality is, they really don’t know what they actually do and what would be the difference between them being in the sim vs not. Folks are enamored with acronyms, leading to paralysis by analysis.

In the above case for example, INS does not mean lack of EGI. But by the same token, how many would actually know the difference? Doesn’t matter in the end because everyone gets focused on reading an acronym and then making a direct comparison.

INS switch means no EGI. It doesn't mean "no GPS" though.

INS is INS. Adding EGI doesn’t mean there is no longer INS, or that there is no INU. -15E has had EGI forever and a day, still has INS/INU and uses an INS switch. INS is just supplemented by GPS, doesn’t mean it’s no longer there.

EGI is LRU - one box that contains all INS + GPS equipment. That's why it's called "embedded". If you have an EGi unit installed, why would you need a separate INS system installed?

That is not true for all aircraft sorry. There could very well be some that are, but definitely not all.

From my understanding, the F-16 used MNF to blend INS/GPS before going to an updated system. INS primary, supplemented by GPS for updates. They were not mutually exclusive in terms of operation. You’d have to engage with someone with more indepth knowledge to know if there are any actual fundamental differences between the two or different terms for the same thing.

EGI was initially implemented in Block 30/32 aircraft, and is required for use of JDAM and other advanced internally guided munitions. Block 50 aircraft have an improved INS/GPS, and can deliver even more advanced guided weapons (AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD).

If the ED implementation of the F-16C Block 50 can deliver those weapons (eventually), then we'll have the required positional navigation equipment, so not to worry.

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Ok, I have to revise this statement. I couldn't find an evidence that F-16 Block 30 and up has anything else than EGI installed.

That would depend on what your definition of EGI is. If you are making the comparison to the newer units, then I doubt it...they appear to have still been in testing in circa '07.

I used to charge F-16 INU batteries in the AOR on 42's, and they were using the same batteries the F-15 was. That was a few years after '07.

If you are taking blending INS/GPS suitable for dropping IAMs/GPS weapons and updating the INS to account for drift...which is also referred to as EGI, then I would say yes.

Different EGI providers exist, with different generation products, they all have in common a single LRU unit that contains all equipment.

The answer to this is still a no. You are associating EGI to a specific product/part that makes it "EGI", it isnt.

INS switch means no EGI. It doesn't mean "no GPS" though.

F-16s had GPS long before block 50 was a thing so yes it should have both INS and GPS by default. EGI only integrated the two so shouldn't exactly be a big deal that people will have to work two switches instead of one. :)

I'm not defining anything. In my view, EGI is a black box unit that has inputs and outputs, power supply, and supports one or more data transfer standards. Inside is installed tightly coupled GPS/INS unit which can calculate "blended state vector" and independent state vectors from both GPS and INS part of the unit. The black box can have more equipment inside because of its modular design. What equipment in aircraft use outputted data and for what purpose I do not really care, nor does EGI. What user interface send commands to the box, again, is irrelevant.

 

When you have defined set of data that a unit receive and send, and what tolerances to desired result are, under some standard, you can then license any manufacturer that builds a device meeting the standard and prove it.

 

I'm not sure what do you think EGI is.

EGI is not a box, it’s a process of combining different signals.

This is just getting further off topic, but the F-16 blended signals using two boxes in the past. One GPS, one INS. Whether it’s a single unit or not now, I don’t know the answer, but functiomality would still be common between the two. It was good enough then for nav/precision weapons, so really whether it is still in use now or if something else is used, is more or less irrelevant IMO. No one out there is coming close to 100% fidelity on those systems anyway.

Maybe it's a little bit off topic, but it's interesting discussion.

 

I'm not trying to disprove you, but I'm interested what GPS and INS units F-16 used in what blocks. INS units were LGR or mechanical? What level of integration existed between GPS and INS and via what interface?

To my knowledge...everyone has been laser(?) since the 90's(?).

From my understanding of reading, INS signal was the primary signal and GPS was used to supplement/correct errors. This is referencing the timeframe of the F-16 ED is modeling. Whether that is still the same currently, I don't know. I also don't know exactly when/why the alignment time was reduced from 8 minutes to 4 minutes. If anything, that would be the only real "noticeable" difference that one might see.

Maybe it's a little bit off topic, but it's interesting discussion.

 

I'm not trying to disprove you, but I'm interested what GPS and INS units F-16 used in what blocks. INS units were LGR or mechanical? What level of integration existed between GPS and INS and via what interface?

Not specific by block. Depends on the year and country, or best would be year and specific tail number/serial number. Laser Ring Gyros where introduce on TCTO 1F-16-2255 and it should have been completed around 2001, EGI where introduce on TCTO 1F-16-2489, and by 2010 was not completed. The EGI panel was introduce after OFP M5.1+, TCTO 1f-16-2570. Again, not completed by 2010. To know what aircraft had RLG/INS + GPS and which had EGI you would need to know when these Time Compliance Technical Orders (TCTO) where completed on those aircraft.

Maybe it's a little bit off topic, but it's interesting discussion.

 

I'm not trying to disprove you, but I'm interested what GPS and INS units F-16 used in what blocks. INS units were RLG or mechanical?

They were initially all mechanical but, at least in the USAF community, all were switched over and using RLG prior to block 50s.

They were initially all mechanical but, at least in the USAF community, all were switched over and using RLG prior to block 50s.

Not block specific. There where new build USAF block 50 without Ring Laser Gyros (RLG)

EGI is not a box, it’s a process of combining different signals

I cannot say with 100% certainty as I didn't get a chance to work on EGI equipped F-16s but I am pretty sure EGI is a combination of the INU and the GPS receiver boxes thus replacing two boxes with one.

ED can model EGI, RLG+ GPS or both and claim they are all accurate unless someone here has the history of the specific USAF F-16C block 50 after CCIP and when did it got what system. Otherwise, non of us can disprove it.

Not block specific. There where new build USAF block 50 without Ring Laser Gyros (RLG)

It is correct that RLG isn't block specific as the RLG INU is a drop in replacement for the mechnical INU not requiring any change to the F-16 itself but the only way they didn't have RLG was if they had EGI. RLG was the standard by the time the block 50 was produced so no you wouldn't see USAF block 50s with mechanical INUs.

I cannot speak to foreign sale birds as a lot of times those were a hodge podge of F-16 technology but I can to USAF birds.

So I have to revise my statement again? :) F-16 is really confusing. So, am I correct when I write that DCS F-16 will have something similar (even same?) to DCS F-18 (INS+GPS), loosely coupled system?

All aircraft are the same, just more documented on the F-16. But all aircraft that I can think of where always being updated and upgraded at different rates at different times. In the past you could have F-4G units with differences between aircraft. For example in Kunsan AB circa 2008, there where Block 30, Block 40 without CCIP, block 40 after CCIP. Some CCIP block 40 where getting beyond line of sight radios and some did not. Some where getting OFP other had old ones. They might have been 6 or 7 different configuration. That is one base on 1 year. Multiply that by all the bases that fly F-16 and by all the countries: how many combination can we get?

ED can model EGI, RLG+ GPS or both and claim they are all accurate unless someone here has the history of the specific USAF F-16C block 50 after CCIP and when did it got what system. Otherwise, non of us can disprove it.

RLG INUs didn't have anything to do with CCIP. It was done as a single replacement of the mechanical INUs.

... I'm interested what GPS and INS units F-16 used in what blocks.

With the introduction of GPS earlier blocks (25,30/32) were upgraded with EGI (a rack upgrade and new LRU) that incorporated INS and GPS in a single unit.

This has the problem that if the GPS fails, you need to change the functioning INS as well or if you wanted to reboot the GPS, you shut down the INS as well (as it was in the same unit) and had to redo the 8 minute alignment.

In later blocks (40/42, 50/52) the LRU's were separated to avoid the problem.

INS units were RLG or mechanical?

The impression I have is that, early block 30's had RLG (perhaps a previous upgrade from mechanical), as when they got the EGI upgrade, the surplus RLG's were used to upgrade the block 40's.

This is from F-16 net posts from 2004-2007, some of the info will be good, some perhaps not, YMMV.

Yea, but it's not like they just took GPS unit and INS unit and packed them into a box.

It's not likely because why?