don't understand setting radar range

fitness88 · January 27, 2009

1]If the radar's emission beam can't be range adjusted what does the radar range adjustment at the bottom of the HUD do?

2] As well my SU-27 parachute fails to deploy sometimes, are there known issues?

Thank you.

Edited January 27, 2009 by fitness88

159th_Viper · January 27, 2009

1]...As well my SU-27 parachute fails to deploy sometimes, are there known issues?

Excessive speed (300Km/h+)/Engines not set to Idle at chute deployment will blow your chute right off.

fitness88 · January 27, 2009

Yes there have been times my thottle was not at idle.

Thank you for the info.

fitness88 · January 27, 2009

What about:

1]If the radar's emission beam can't be range adjusted what does the radar range adjustment at the bottom of the HUD do?

Kuky · January 27, 2009

Range on the HUD is distance to which you expect your contact to be at. For example:

You take of to intercept enemy aircraft which was reported by Ground Intercept to be flying at 10Km and their distance to you is say 70Km. You turn your nose (or set radar to scan) in the heading of the enemy, you set elevation difference (radar vertical elevation) and expected distance to enemy. Your radar will then point directly at the enemy aircraft and will have greatest chance of picking it/them up.

So if you are flying at 3Km and enemy aircraft is at 10Km, you set radar elevation to 7 and set range to 70. As you close in you keep adjusting the range to less and less. Also if your flight altitude difference starts changing also you need to adjust that also.

You should notice that as set distance is greater the antena elevation will be less and less, in another words, at 10Km distance and 10Km altitude difference the radar elevation will be very high and radar will be looking at some 45° up. At distance of 100Km and same elevation difference of 10Km radar will be elevated only about 10°

Edited January 27, 2009 by Kuky

fitness88 · January 28, 2009

Range on the HUD is distance to which you expect your contact to be at. For example:

You take of to intercept enemy aircraft which was reported by Ground Intercept to be flying at 10Km and their distance to you is say 70Km. You turn your nose (or set radar to scan) in the heading of the enemy, you set elevation difference (radar vertical elevation) and expected distance to enemy. Your radar will then point directly at the enemy aircraft and will have greatest chance of picking it/them up.

So if you are flying at 3Km and enemy aircraft is at 10Km, you set radar elevation to 7 and set range to 70. As you close in you keep adjusting the range to less and less. Also if your flight altitude difference starts changing also you need to adjust that also.

You should notice that as set distance is greater the antena elevation will be less and less, in another words, at 10Km distance and 10Km altitude difference the radar elevation will be very high and radar will be looking at some 45° up. At distance of 100Km and same elevation difference of 10Km radar will be elevated only about 10°

By setting the altitude [above or below your plane] and range [from your plane] from the AWAC info, the radar is focused to the exact expected area [altitude and distance] of the TGT, I understand this. But this is only useful when AWACS are around to give you the altitude and distance. Otherwise when AWACS are not around to give you this info, what is the use of the range on the HUD? Can it be used for something else?

Thank you.

104th_Crunch · January 28, 2009

From Teka Teka,

With no AWACs or wingman call you can still use the Expected Range, Vertical elevation and Horizontal Slewing to make sure you are searching in different areas and not just straight ahead. If you do not know where the bandits are, you need to scan as much of the sky as possible to find them.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Crunch

fitness88 · January 28, 2009

From Teka Teka,

With no AWACs or wingman call you can still use the Expected Range, Vertical elevation and Horizontal Slewing to make sure you are searching in different areas and not just straight ahead. If you do not know where the bandits are, you need to scan as much of the sky as possible to find them.

Example: With my radar set at zero elevation and flying level, it doesn't really matter what range it is set at because the radar beam distance cannot be adjusted.

But if I'm searching with no info as to where an enemy plane might be, then really it's all guess work where I decide to set my range and altitude. Of course once I get a contact hit on the HUD then I know where to look in the sky by calculating the range, altitude and nose off aspect.

Correct?

Is there a preferred setting that the range/elevation should be set when not searching for a specific target?

Edited January 28, 2009 by fitness88

Kuky · January 28, 2009

You can use this also for setting, what I would call, "sensitivity" in the elevation of the radar antena. If your expected range is min 10km then setting vertical elevation to 1-2km gets quite a big angle and can make you miss an area in the sky because radar is moving up/down very quickly. I normally fly with 25-30Km range when scanning for contacts

104th_Crunch · January 28, 2009

Yes, if you have your elevation at 0 then expected range will have no effect. Keep in mind though that with the BVR radar setting in Lock On the radar elevation does change when you pitch your nose up and down.

If you are searching for bandits with no info, yes it is guess work. I do not think there is one preferred rang and elevation setting. You just need to continue adjusting setting to try and cover as much area as you can. For example, if you are at high altitude you may want to scan low and close and then alternate and scan close and high, far and low, far and high, etc.

I find it a good idea to first scan within effective missile range as bandits in this area are the most immediate threats to you. So Expected Range at 20KM to 30KM, then I scan high to low and left and right.

Frostie · January 28, 2009

Like the guys here said 20-30km is a good start setting when searching for bandits, don't worry to much about fiddling with range until you find a contact and only if you struggle to keep a track of him.

Just keep in mind that the longer the range setting the smaller the increments will be when you move the radar up and down eg. at range of 10km an elevation of 1 will look much higher than a setting of 50km elevation 1.

fitness88 · January 28, 2009

Keep in mind though that with the BVR radar setting in Lock On the radar elevation does change when you pitch your nose up and down.

Not sure if you're saying the same thing that I'm saying, so to clarify...

When locked onto a target, the radar has a stabilized lock on the target while pitching and rolling...but that would only apply within the gimble range of the radar? I assume this applies in VS and Boresight as well as EOS?

I found this in the manual:

BEYOND VISUAL RANGE (BVR) COMBAT

You have detected an enemy aircraft and you are ready to attack it with medium or long range

missiles. However, the enemy has the same intentions and is equipped with missiles similar to

your own. In such a situation, victory is not obvious and depends greatly on several factors such

as maintaining a stable target lock and the missile’s maximum launch range. When such factors

are equal, the adversaries have an equal chance of victory. In order to gain an advantage, one

must use BVR tactics to gain the upper hand.

The most common tactic is called the tactical turn away. The maneuver calls for launching a

missile at long-range and then turning away from the target while keeping the target within the

outer gimbal limits of the radar. While maintaining radar lock on the target and supporting the

launched missile, the rate of closure with the target decreases. With a reduced closure rate, the

enemy’s fire control computer may delay allowable launch or at least delay the enemy pilot from

launching until he reaches Rpi. When both you and the enemy launch at the same time, a tactical

turn away will cause the enemy’s missile to fly a less efficient, longer flight path and use more

energy. If the enemy missile still manages to reach you, a high-G maneuver should easily defeat

a missile low on energy.

Thank you all very much for clearing up some foginess on use and application technique of the radar range.

Edited January 29, 2009 by fitness88

Azrayen · January 29, 2009

Keep in mind though that with the BVR radar setting in Lock On the radar elevation does change when you pitch your nose up and down.

Hum hum... Really sure ??

IIRC, pitch is "corrected" as long as it's possible (antenna movements limits)

104th_Crunch · January 29, 2009

So you think If you pitch your nose up 30 degrees your radar will pitch up 30 degrees? I do not think it works this way. Maybe some others can chime in with their opinion. I have never done exact testing but I am pretty sure pitching your nose up and down in BVR mode will not change where the radar is pointing and it will be vertically stabilized.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Crunch

104th_Crunch · January 29, 2009

Not sure if you're saying the same thing that I'm saying, so to clarify...
When locked onto a target, the radar has a stabilized lock on the target while pitching and rolling...but that would only apply within the gimble range of the radar? I assume this applies in VS and Boresight as well as EOS?

Yes, it will only apply within the gimbal limits of the radar. +/- 60 degrees in elevation and +/- 60 degrees in azimuth. What I am saying, (as mentioned in the post above) is the that in BVR mode if your radar is pointing up to the maximum 60 degrees, pitching your nose up another 10 degrees for example will not make the radar point up an additional 10 degrees. It is vertically stabilized. Not like horizontally, If you turn 10 degrees to the left, the radar moves horizontally 10 degrees to the left. I have no idea if this is realistic but that is what I have noticed in Lock On.

Hope that explains it.

golfsierra2 · January 29, 2009

I don't think so.

As long as your radar is searching and you don't have a target locked, the antenna beam follow all aircraft movements, so the beams will be moving, too. If you have locked a target, the antenna beam will stay fixed pointing in that direction, and the aircraft is moving around the antenna beam. If the aircraft movement is exceeding the upper/lower or left/right limits of the antenna, you will loose your lock.

That is what I noticed flying my MiG-29S

Edited January 29, 2009 by golfsierra2

Kuky · January 29, 2009

I think crunch is correct, pitching the nose up or down does not change radar pitch as it's auto adjusted (up to radar's gimbals limits of course). To know for sure we could test this... fly slightly bellow enemy contact and have radar set so enemy contact is in scan zone... then slow down (so you don't start climbing fast and start creating high elevation diference) and pitch the nose up some 20° and see if contact will show on radar.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Kuky

fitness88 · January 29, 2009

I don't think so.

As long as your radar is searching and you don't have a target locked, the antenna beam follow all aircraft movements, so the beams will be moving, too. If you have locked a target, the antenna beam will stay fixed pointing in that direction, and the aircraft is moving around the antenna beam. If the aircraft movement is exceeding the upper/lower or left/right limits of the antenna, you will loose your lock.

That is what I noticed flying my MiG-29S

In my experience and what golfsierra2 is saying is the way it works in other combat sims and the way it is written in the LOMAC manual.

When radar is not locked on to a TGT it is stabilized to its own aircraft, when locked onto a TGT it is stabilized to the TGT [within gimble limits].

Edited January 29, 2009 by fitness88

104th_Crunch · January 29, 2009

Tested and verified. If a bandit is just above your scan area, pitching your nose up will not help you to pick him up in BVR mode. Here is a little picture I made (thanks to RVE Yoda for the inspiration). This assumes BVR mode only and that radar is left in the default elevation, i.e. no slewing. As Kuky mentioned, it's stabilized up to the radar's gimbal limits.

fitness88 · January 30, 2009

Tested and verified. If a bandit is just above your scan area, pitching your nose up will not help you to pick him up in BVR mode. Here is a little picture I made (thanks to RVE Yoda for the inspiration). This assumes BVR mode only and that radar is left in the default elevation, i.e. no slewing. As Kuky mentioned, it's stabilized up to the radar's gimbal limits.

Good illustration. So this means the radar in BVR is always stabilized whether locked onto a TGT or not. So the radar set to zero altitude aspect to your plane will attempt to maintain that aspect and not scan longitudinal when you pitch up. Wouldn't this mean that a plane just above your setting would eventually be picked up by your radar as you steadily climb because your radar would eventually get to the bottom limit of its gimble and be forced to scan your higher altitude?

Thank you.

Edited January 30, 2009 by fitness88

104th_Crunch · January 30, 2009

"So this means the radar in BVR is always stabilized whether locked onto a TGT or not."

Only when not locked to target. When it's locked to target it will try to follow the target to maximum gimbal ranges. 60 deg +/- vertically.

"So the radar set to zero altitude aspect to your plane will attempt to maintain that aspect and not scan longitudinal when you pitch up."

That's correct. BTW it's easy to see this in the F-15 radar. The 2 numbers showing max and min altitude of your radar beam at the distance set by the TDC. These numbers do not change when you pitch up and down. They only change when you manually slew the radar up and down or if you change altitude.

"Wouldn't this mean that a plane just above your setting would eventually be picked up by your radar as you steadily climb because your radar would eventually get to the bottom limit of its gimble and be forced to scan your higher altitude?""

Yes, that right. It always move with you as you climb or descend.

fitness88 · January 30, 2009

"So this means the radar in BVR is always stabilized whether locked onto a TGT or not."

I Definitely was thinking in the moment on this one. Yes the US planes have lower and upper scan range on the radar screen which is a nice plus.

Thanks Crunch for all the follow ups.

Edited January 30, 2009 by fitness88

fitness88 · January 30, 2009

if your radar is pointing up to the maximum 60 degrees, pitching your nose up another 10 degrees for example will not make the radar point up an additional 10 degrees. It is vertically stabilized. Not like horizontally, If you turn 10 degrees to the left, the radar moves horizontally 10 degrees to the left. I have no idea if this is realistic but that is what I have noticed in Lock On.

I just found this in the reference manual page 54, it will be interesting to test if it is accurately modeled.

"In BVR mode, the radar antenna

is stabilized in roll and pitch. This

means that the direction of the

antenna axis does not change

when the aircraft banks, pulls up

or dives, providing that the

aircraft maneuvers do not

exceed the gimbal limits of the

antenna."

"As with the radar, the field of search of the electro-optical system is stabilized in roll and pitch."

104th_Crunch · January 30, 2009

Nice find! That's exactly what we have been talking about. There is nothing to test. When I say horizontally I mean azimuth. If you change you heading the radar changes with you. In the manual says roll and pitch. If you do a roll the radar remains stabilized.

Good find!

PoleCat · January 30, 2009

Good stuff! Excellent clarification.

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don't understand setting radar range

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