Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) The modules I have right now are: A-10C Warthog P-51D Mustang Flaming Cliffs 3 I would like to get the F-86 Sabre module in the future. I currently have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It's good for simple/arcadey flight/space combat games like Ace Combat,Hawx, and SSZ, but it doesn't seem so very good for this game. Anyways, I was looking for a joystick that fills these requirements: No potentiometer sensors for pitch and roll axis Inclusion of a yaw/rudder twist axis on the stick, also known as the Z axis - see edit below Preferably no potentiometers on the yaw/rudder Z (stick twist) axis - see edit below Hall Effect magnetic sensors are a good alternative to potentiometer sensors Preferably no potentiometers for the throttle HOTAS joystick arrangement Minimal deadzone or no deadzone at all or deadzone adjustment software included Upon release of stick, it pretty much returns to the exact same position Comfortable grip. I had to sand down some sharp edges on my joystick. Easy access to useful buttons At least one 8-way hat switch on top of flight stick (for quick 3rd person view changes) Long lasting durability Base of flight stick is very heavy and is hard to move around, stays in one place Highly accurate pitch/roll/yaw sensors. I heard the Thrustmaster T-16000M has very good accuracy. There is little "play" when the stick is in the resting position - by this I mean if you push the stick (when it is in the resting upright position) with very little effort and it doesn't move around. If you continue to apply a very small amount of force to the stick in the same direction and then all of a sudden you hit a "wall" - to continue moving the stick in the same direction you would need a much much greater increase in force. The more you can push the stick around with very very little force before you hit "the wall" the more there is "play" to the joystick. One way to test this is if you hold just the base of the flight stick and you tilt it and the flight stick moves with respect to the base (when I want it NOT to move with respect to the base). I'm thinking about the Saitek X-52 or the X-52 Pro. Not sure if the Pro version is worth the extra $$$. What are your guys' recommendation? EDIT: On second thought, I'm not sure whether or not I want a twist axis for my joystick. Twist axis is no longer a requirement for me. Edited September 14, 2014 by Visceral Raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Base of flight stick is very heavy and is hard to move around, stays in one place The only one that is going to meet that requirement, in my mind, is a Warthog but it has no twist rudder. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlawal2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Currently have the PRO version and definitely recommend it if you don't want to spend the cash for the Warthog or a Komodo Sims rig... I prefer choppers and if you intend to use the X-52 for helicopters, I highly recommend performing the center detent removal procedure found elsewhere on this forum.. Makes control of choppers infinitely better.. Also, the centering spring on the stick is too stiff for the kind of precision control required for choppers so I also recommend installing a zip tie on the spring so that you have some free movement near the center for fine movements / control... And finally, remove the afterburner detent on the throttle for the same reason as the zip tie on the stick.. If you leave the throttle detent installed (when using the throttle as a collective) you will fight the controls IMMENSELY when trying to land as the damned detent gets in the way at PRECISELY the moment you need fine control) I seriously got pissed at that thing for quite some time until I found the fix for it... (also elsewhere on this site..) You mention the base weight and I recommend firmly mounting all three parts, stick, collective and rudder pedals. Makes a huge difference in control and feel.. Edited September 14, 2014 by outlawal2 "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalnwood Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I think that twist rudder is not compatible with a number of of things on the list so I would just go with what you are happy with in the price range you are going for. You didn't mention what that was but I assume it is below the warthog having mentioned the x-55? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 I think that twist rudder is not compatible with a number of of things on the list so I would just go with what you are happy with in the price range you are going for. You didn't mention what that was but I assume it is below the warthog having mentioned the x-55? What is it incompatible with? I'm guessing it affects things like deadzone and the amount of "play" (I described what I meant by "play" in the OP) the joystick has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Currently have the PRO version and definitely recommend it if you don't want to spend the cash for the Warthog or a Komodo Sims rig... I prefer choppers and if you intend to use the X-52 for helicopters, I highly recommend performing the center detent removal procedure found elsewhere on this forum.. Makes control of choppers infinitely better.. Also, the centering spring on the stick is too stiff for the kind of precision control required for choppers so I also recommend installing a zip tie on the spring so that you have some free movement near the center for fine movements / control... And finally, remove the afterburner detent on the throttle for the same reason as the zip tie on the stick.. If you leave the throttle detent installed (when using the throttle as a collective) you will fight the controls IMMENSELY when trying to land as the damned detent gets in the way at PRECISELY the moment you need fine control) I seriously got pissed at that thing for quite some time until I found the fix for it... (also elsewhere on this site..) You mention the base weight and I recommend firmly mounting all three parts, stick, collective and rudder pedals. Makes a huge difference in control and feel.. Not exactly what you mean by those detents. How exactly do these detents affect the stick/afterburner? My guess for the afterburner detent is that it locks the throttle in place when your throttle is really high (afterburner mode)? Well I'm probably not going to fly helicopters for a while. Still need to learn DCS. But I'll try out helicopters in Take On Helicopters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalnwood Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Hi Visceral, usually sticks with a rudder are not the beefy ones, e.g. heavy base or dare I say built to last an extremely long time. The ones with hall sensors certainly have less to go wrong with them. The detent is the fixed center postion, sometimes it can give you the opposite of having play and in older X series sticks, possibly current ones it can lead to sticktion where you need to push too hard to get it to move from center loosing some amount of fine control around the center point. Even the warthog suffers from this but an extension to the shaft alleviates it. As outlaw mentions, you should mount, i.e. bolt down everything to make sure it wont move about. This will help out on the x52 a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Hi Visceral, usually sticks with a rudder are not the beefy ones, e.g. heavy base or dare I say built to last an extremely long time. The ones with hall sensors certainly have less to go wrong with them. The detent is the fixed center postion, sometimes it can give you the opposite of having play and in older X series sticks, possibly current ones it can lead to sticktion where you need to push too hard to get it to move from center loosing some amount of fine control around the center point. Even the warthog suffers from this but an extension to the shaft alleviates it. As outlaw mentions, you should mount, i.e. bolt down everything to make sure it wont move about. This will help out on the x52 a lot. Well I hope to get one a durable stick with twist axis for rudder/yaw then. Now I'm thinking about getting rudder pedals, but that seems to belong to another post (click here for that other post) Edited September 14, 2014 by Visceral Raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 If your budget is enough for the X-52 Pro, then I'd say go for the Saitek x-55 Rhino :) It'll be a great stick for everything. (of course assuming you can't afford a TM Warthog HOTAS - or something from Max Flight Sim) Well I don't have any budget limit, as long as something meets all the requirements I listed, I will be super happy. :pilotfly::joystick::thumbup::megalol::lol: Thanks for the suggestions everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Just edited the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalnwood Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Well I hope to get one a durable stick with twist axis for rudder/yaw then. Now I'm thinking about getting rudder pedals, but that seems to belong to another post (click here for that other post The warthog was pretty much ruled out because of the lack of twist rudder. Now, if you are going to get a set of rudder pedals I am not sure why you would not want to seriously consider it. I have tried quite a few sticks, not the x-55 or the x-65, I have tried the x-52, CH sticks and throttles, logitech g940 and the warthog. Honestly, I can't see anyone with no budget issues trying all of these side by side and not thinking the warthog stands out. With any stick, who knows if you receive one that runs for ten years or dies after only a couple if we are to be honest about it. EDIT. Just saw your edit, we were typing at the same time :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Trooper Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Go for rudders and enjoy choppers dude! Once that's sorted the Hawg is a good place to start, It's got its shortcomings but its got a lot more bonuses! If you find better I would also be interested! HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me. DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz. Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboHog Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Thrusmaster T16000 Hall's sensors but not on the twist. ever since I started using it two years ago it has been performing flawlessly. No jittering - never. I'm only using the throttle in the Huey as throttle (so basicly I leave it untouched) or for wheel brakes in planes. So can't comment on that. I have been using the twist handle for a year and never had problems. Now I've got rudder pedals. It is perfect for helicopter control (and AAR :D) due to the long throw and slightly weak spring. This makes for very accurate control around the center (small adjustments). In regards to your last point, this somewhat weak spring fits just that requirement. It moves away from center in a fluid motion. Funny thing is that I came from a 3D Pro. Never want to go back. If this one breaks, I will buy another one. [*]No potentiometer sensors for pitch and roll axis - check [*]Inclusion of a yaw/rudder twist axis on the stick, also known as the Z axis - see edit below - check [*]Preferably no potentiometers on the yaw/rudder Z (stick twist) axis - see edit below - nope [*]Hall Effect magnetic sensors are a good alternative to potentiometer sensors - Indeed [*]Preferably no potentiometers for the throttle - nope [*]HOTAS joystick arrangement - Not really [*]Minimal deadzone or no deadzone at all or deadzone adjustment software included - check [*]Upon release of stick, it pretty much returns to the exact same position - check [*]Comfortable grip. I had to sand down some sharp edges on my joystick. - matter of taste. I like the feel [*]Easy access to useful buttons - to some degree. there are not too many buttons on the stick itself [*]At least one 8-way hat switch on top of flight stick (for quick 3rd person view changes) - check [*]Long lasting durability - check [*]Base of flight stick is very heavy and is hard to move around, stays in one place - moves around a bit. Better surface may solve problem [*]Highly accurate pitch/roll/yaw sensors. I heard the Thrustmaster T-16000M has very good accuracy. - very accurate indeed [*]There is little "play" when the stick is in the resting position - by this I mean if you push the stick (when it is in the resting upright position) with very little effort and it doesn't move around. If you continue to apply a very small amount of force to the stick in the same direction and then all of a sudden you hit a "wall" - to continue moving the stick in the same direction you would need a much much greater increase in force. The more you can push the stick around with very very little force before you hit "the wall" the more there is "play" to the joystick. One way to test this is if you hold just the base of the flight stick and you tilt it and the flight stick moves with respect to the base (when I want it NOT to move with respect to the base). - T16000 perfectly fits this requirement Edited September 14, 2014 by TurboHog 'Frett' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 The warthog was pretty much ruled out because of the lack of twist rudder. Now, if you are going to get a set of rudder pedals I am not sure why you would not want to seriously consider it. I have tried quite a few sticks, not the x-55 or the x-65, I have tried the x-52, CH sticks and throttles, logitech g940 and the warthog. Honestly, I can't see anyone with no budget issues trying all of these side by side and not thinking the warthog stands out. With any stick, who knows if you receive one that runs for ten years or dies after only a couple if we are to be honest about it. EDIT. Just saw your edit, we were typing at the same time :) I would get the Warthog but I heard it has potentiometers for its pitch/roll stick axis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalnwood Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Nope, the old cougar stick did but the new warthog stick as is precise (more so) than any other stick I have used. It def has hall sensors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devrim Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Well I don't have any budget limit...So, buy two X-55s. Keep one, send me other. :helpsmilie: :joystick: :D i7-2600 @3.4GHz | Corsair 16GB @1600MHz. | MSI GTX1660Ti Gaming X | Samsung 256GB SSD (Win10HPx64) Samsung G5 32" + Samsung 18" + 2x8"TFT Displays | Saitek X-55 Rhino & Rudder | TM MFD Cougars | Logitech G13, G230, G510, PZ55 & Farming Sim Panel | TIR5 >>MY MODS<< | Discord: Devrim#1068 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 So, buy two X-55s. Keep one, send me other. :helpsmilie: :joystick: :D LOL, sorry no can do, maybe when I'm rich :):music_whistling::lol::thumbup::megalol: :smilewink::P:pilotfly::joystick::D:smartass: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Go for rudders and enjoy choppers dude! Once that's sorted the Hawg is a good place to start, It's got its shortcomings but its got a lot more bonuses! If you find better I would also be interested! When you say rudders do you mean rudder pedals? Nope, the old cougar stick did but the new warthog stick as is precise (more so) than any other stick I have used. It def has hall sensors. It looks like the HOTAS Warthog here has Hall sensors. How does the stick accuracy compare to the T-16000M? Thrusmaster T16000 Hall's sensors but not on the twist. ever since I started using it two years ago it has been performing flawlessly. No jittering - never. I'm only using the throttle in the Huey as throttle (so basicly I leave it untouched) or for wheel brakes in planes. So can't comment on that. I have been using the twist handle for a year and never had problems. Now I've got rudder pedals. It is perfect for helicopter control (and AAR :D) due to the long throw and slightly weak spring. This makes for very accurate control around the center (small adjustments). In regards to your last point, this somewhat weak spring fits just that requirement. It moves away from center in a fluid motion. Funny thing is that I came from a 3D Pro. Never want to go back. If this one breaks, I will buy another one. [*]No potentiometer sensors for pitch and roll axis - check [*]Inclusion of a yaw/rudder twist axis on the stick, also known as the Z axis - see edit below - check [*]Preferably no potentiometers on the yaw/rudder Z (stick twist) axis - see edit below - nope [*]Hall Effect magnetic sensors are a good alternative to potentiometer sensors - Indeed [*]Preferably no potentiometers for the throttle - nope [*]HOTAS joystick arrangement - Not really [*]Minimal deadzone or no deadzone at all or deadzone adjustment software included - check [*]Upon release of stick, it pretty much returns to the exact same position - check [*]Comfortable grip. I had to sand down some sharp edges on my joystick. - matter of taste. I like the feel [*]Easy access to useful buttons - to some degree. there are not too many buttons on the stick itself [*]At least one 8-way hat switch on top of flight stick (for quick 3rd person view changes) - check [*]Long lasting durability - check [*]Base of flight stick is very heavy and is hard to move around, stays in one place - moves around a bit. Better surface may solve problem [*]Highly accurate pitch/roll/yaw sensors. I heard the Thrustmaster T-16000M has very good accuracy. - very accurate indeed [*]There is little "play" when the stick is in the resting position - by this I mean if you push the stick (when it is in the resting upright position) with very little effort and it doesn't move around. If you continue to apply a very small amount of force to the stick in the same direction and then all of a sudden you hit a "wall" - to continue moving the stick in the same direction you would need a much much greater increase in force. The more you can push the stick around with very very little force before you hit "the wall" the more there is "play" to the joystick. One way to test this is if you hold just the base of the flight stick and you tilt it and the flight stick moves with respect to the base (when I want it NOT to move with respect to the base). - T16000 perfectly fits this requirement Maybe I'll get both the Warthog and the T-16000M, I'll probably use the T-16000M for less-realistic/arcadey space combat/flight games like Strike Suit Zero, Ace Combat, Hawx, Battlefield, etc. Edited September 14, 2014 by Visceral Raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeliusg Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Both a Warthog and a T.16000M for ya? Well, why didn't you tell us you were made of money! :D FYI the Warthog and T.16000M both use the same gimbal system (ball in a cup kind of thing, essentially), except the Warthog has a much stronger centering spring. If you get the Warthog you won't need to bother with the T.16000M unless you're one of those Star Citizen die-hards that want to use dual sticks. Also rudder pedals are much better than any sort of twist if you can afford them in addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Both a Warthog and a T.16000M for ya? Well, why didn't you tell us you were made of money! :D FYI the Warthog and T.16000M both use the same gimbal system (ball in a cup kind of thing, essentially), except the Warthog has a much stronger centering spring. If you get the Warthog you won't need to bother with the T.16000M unless you're one of those Star Citizen die-hards that want to use dual sticks. Also rudder pedals are much better than any sort of twist if you can afford them in addition. Well if the Thrustmaster T-16000M has no benefits over the Warthog, then of course I wouldn't buy it. I no longer consider twist stick a benefit, and I don't like the wimpy throttle flap on the T-16000M either. Thanks for saving me the money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyZ Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 GET A WARTHOG!!!!! PERIOD...There is no better stick and throttle out there for DCS as far as I'm concerned. I've use many others and none of them holds a candle to the TM Warthog. I would also say that the LAST thing you want is a twist rudder. Get a set of pedals on the floor with toe brakes. You will not regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RglsPhoto Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Throttle and Stick: TM Hotas Warthog or VBK Black Manba Rudder : Saitek Flight Pro Rudder I7-6700K OC 4.9G, 896G SSD, 32G RAM @ 2400MHz, NH-D15 cooling system,TM Hotas Warthog,Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals,TrackIr 5, BOSE M2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeliusg Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Special thing about the Warthog is that it is all hall sensors. Every axis. Even the slew stick some people find annoying is actually a hall sensor ministick albeit a low resolution one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Special thing about the Warthog is that it is all hall sensors. Every axis. Even the slew stick some people find annoying is actually a hall sensor ministick albeit a low resolution one. Wow unbelievable! Do you have evidence of this amazingness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Raptor Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) OK I'm probably going to get the new Warthog with Hall sensors. Now I have to decide on which rudder pedals to buy. Yay another post! Edited September 15, 2014 by Visceral Raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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