Pipper-less engagement

[WildBillKelsoe]

I've come to realize that the pipper (gyro) is useless against both human and AI opponents. I now aim by eyesight, zoomed in when on rear aspect of target.

 

I fire a split second burst, just to get a 'feel' of trajectory, then adjust accordingly. Most of the time I'm able to land hits to critical parts, but those .50 cal machine guns are truly, a work of art.

 

What about you guys? still use the same pipper and lead technique?

[Echo38]

I use the cross only. The marks below the ring are distracting to me, so I turned off the ring. I, too, find the gyro to be entirely unnecessary; with practice, a good eye gets the solution faster.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I don't even use the cross.. I just lean a bit to the left or right, hold my head there (of course G effects off), and trace the bullets outside ahead of me and adjust accordingly. I find that on a pure pursuit (for example chasing your own AI wingman in circles) the gyro is effective.. If you want to shoot him down for being stupid..

[dooom]

hmmm - i certainly dont find the gyro ineffective - in fact, i have pulled some pretty nice snapshots with it since i started to force myself to get used to it. The real challenge is the discipline to not pull lead with the gyro. Although i know this - i often still lead with the pipper out of pure muscle memory.

 

I find in tight dogfights i have both static and gyro on.

 

To be completely honest though - i still struggle with my gunnery in the p51. I am a close shooter and want nothing more than the ability to manage convergence.

 

Watching guys like Merlin makes me feel inadequate and fills me with gun envy.

[TwilightZone]

I've come to realize that the pipper (gyro) is useless against both human and AI opponents. I now aim by eyesight, zoomed in when on rear aspect of target.

 

I fire a split second burst, just to get a 'feel' of trajectory, then adjust accordingly. Most of the time I'm able to land hits to critical parts, but those .50 cal machine guns are truly, a work of art.

 

What about you guys? still use the same pipper and lead technique?

......first thing I do is switch it off in flight......who knows, maybe I'll get used to the gyro one day Edited March 2, 2014 by TwilightZone

[HotTom]

The trick, IMO, is to take the time to learn to use the gyro pipper properly.

 

Don't "chase the pipper." Let it settle. Get it on the screen and maneuver your plane so the target drifts into it.

 

The advantage, sort of like a holographic rifle sight, is that no matter what your head position, if you can see the pipper and put it on the target, you'll hit it. It seems quite accurately modeled.

 

It works fine for me. In pure pursuit I have to put the pipper just a hair below the target but it seems to work, judging by all the pieces flying back at me. ;-)

 

All you're admitting, WB, is that you haven't been able to master it. Not that you've come up with a "better" solution. Yeah, I can hit targets, too, when my sight is knocked out but, really, it's just spray and pray.

 

That video using the fixed sight is a useless technique when both planes are maneuvering.

Edited March 2, 2014 by HotTom

[Merlin-27]

Watching guys like Merlin makes me feel inadequate and fills me with gun envy.

 

You are too kind, my friend. I've seen you tear up plenty of enemy aircraft.

 

I personally prefer using the K14 gyro. If anything, it makes you aware of the forces acting on the aircraft (and bullets) at that moment and can save valuable ammo. Adjusting for range can sometimes be tricky and if not used properly the gyro can actually fool you into using the wrong amount of lead However, when set correctly it can produce some devastating high deflection and inverted shots that would be much harder without it.

 

Following your tracers is just wasteful in my opinion and can turn an easy kill into a drawn out chase when fighting a human pilot. (Also draws attention to you in a skirmish)

 

In the end it just comes down to what you're comfortable with.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Merlin-27
Grammar

[WildBillKelsoe]

well I'm not offering a technique that is known. I've tried the gyro (as I said on my AI wingman in a chase loop) and the tracer (or whatever its called) technique. I feel more comfortable with the latter.

 

Since I'm building a trim wheel box akin to tjhowse's, I wonder if anybody managed to create a ranging knob on their throttle. Its the range that constantly baffles me (I have to be pretty much glued zoom in to get a feel of the other airframe wingspan and adjust my diamonds accordingly).

 

Plus I'm not a fan of spraying. I just like to fire maybe like 2 or 3 (<0.5 sec) bursts, to get a feel of trajectory, then I lead with eye sight and it produces predictable results from close range (<0.1nm)...

 

I don't expect to utilize the full range of 2400 feet as the cone is not really a cone at that range. Add to this inability to set convergence.... We're really tied up here and there....

[ZaltysZ]

Gyro works fine, however it has to be set properly (correct target size and distance) and you should be pulling constant Gs in the plane of motion of target.

 

Target size setting is no brainier, and distance setting can be made easy by using such "impure" means as HOTAS (i.e. constantly adjusting the distance while aiming, so that sight circle always surrounds the target perfectly). The hardest part is constant Gs and staying in plane of motion of target as this requires some cooperation from target.

 

I use the gyro against easier targets: AI, cooperative human pilots, which are: a) preferring 2D maneuvers, b) not seeing me (like when I do BnZ) c) being predictable (like they are chasing my wingman). In other cases, I prefer static sight, but leave the gyro on too: static is for aiming and gyro is for coordinated flying (if both of them are not lined up, there is a need to step on the "ball").

[WildBillKelsoe]

OK, some A2A combat discussion then.

 

I've seen the FACT video and the instructor says the first thing to do in a defence fight is putting your lift vector on the bandit. Does that mean the top of my canopy pointing always at the bandit? The AI is not so much practice as it is with its limited 'moves'. It just does 2 things:

 

1- Out G me in the vertical

2- Scoot very little on the horizontal.

 

Added to these is the fact that SFM is what the AI flies, I find it unfair if not ridiculous to dogfight the AI, even when fully loaded on fuel (AI), it is just pure invincible unless he loses trades all his speed and I have some left just enough for a flap pitch at 100-ish at their T/C (top of climb), and then that is just a 2-3 second window of unguided fire even when correcting with flaps.

 

 

Somebody help me understand the dynamics of the 51. Which turn (right or left) has more speed preservation on the vertical?

[HotTom]

If you flew Falcon 4.0 you would know they were nice enough to etch a lift line into the canopy. It runs from front to rear in the center of the canopy.

 

Yes, that's how I kill the Dora so frequently. I don't chase him (except when I have an energy advantage). I just circle below keeping him on my lift line while he strains his engine.

 

The Dora is faster (at lower altitudes) and out climbs the Mustang. The Mustang turns a bit better (the Dora can hardly turn at all). If you can damage the Dora enough it will head for home at its airfield by the lake and you can jump him when he descends.

 

Let him fight in the vertical. You can't match him. But you can beat him in the horizontal. If you stay low and he can't dive to build energy, you've got him.

 

My only complaint with the Dora is that it is too tough. It takes me at least 150 hits and often 200 to bring it down, according to the scores at the end of the mission.

 

My 2 cents....

Edited March 4, 2014 by HotTom

[WildBillKelsoe]

tttiger, yes I flew F4 AF and I agree that Dora is difficult to kill with your 6 shooter but we have to accept that.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

If you flew Falcon 4.0 you would know they were nice enough to etch a lift line into the canopy. It runs from front to rear in the center of the canopy.

 

Yes, that's how I kill the Dora so frequently. I don't chase him (except when I have an energy advantage). I just circle below keeping him on my lift line while he strains his engine.

 

The Dora is faster (at lower altitudes) and out climbs the Mustang. The Mustang turns a bit better (the Dora can hardly turn at all). If you can damage the Dora enough it will head for home at its airfield by the lake and you can jump him when he descends.

 

Let him fight in the vertical. You can't match him. But you can beat him in the horizontal. If you stay low and he can't dive to build energy, you've got him.

 

My only complaint with the Dora is that it is too tough. It takes me at least 150 hits and often 200 to bring it down, according to the scores at the end of the mission.

 

My 2 cents....

 

sorry, but i definitely have to disagree...at least for now as its AI only...but you can definitely fight the dora in the vertical very successfull...you can easily gain the altitude advantage over him with only a few passes, and from then on, you can boom and zoom him...

[VincentLaw]

I like to use both the gyro and fixed sight. I usually set the gyro to minimum range because it doesn't drift as much there. If you imagine a straight line running through the middle of both sights, you can basically interpolate/extrapolate where you need to put the target based on how far away it is.

 

Also, it makes the pony feel a little more high tech. I want a "clutter" button that puts flashing lights and science fictiony stuff on my HUD.

[ZaltysZ]

I've seen the FACT video and the instructor says the first thing to do in a defence fight is putting your lift vector on the bandit. Does that mean the top of my canopy pointing always at the bandit?

 

Yes, but... you must take into account the aircraft involved.

 

Most instructions are intended for modern BFM, what means high Gs dogfights with fast jets, and assumption, that attacker needs to get into plane of motion of the target, sit at correct range and at relatively low angle-off, or else it will be very hard to get correct firing solution due to insane deflection angles required and errors introduced by aircraft aiming system. Defensive BFM relies on techniques, which complicate attacker's efforts getting into such position. Keeping your lift vector on the attacker is one of such techniques.

 

However, if we do talk about BFM in WWII context, you should be aware of lower speeds, lower Gs, and so on, what makes positional requirements for shooting somewhat less strict. If human pilot has something like 20mm guns at his disposal, he can easily prefer taking out of plane snapshots at high angles-off instead of getting into position behind the target. If target blindly tries to put its lift vector on such attacker, target can easily victimize itself, because putting lift vector on attacker usually presents larger area to be shot at.

[WildBillKelsoe]

so no lift vector on attacker then. So, what else can you offer me? I find that jinking constantly under 2 seconds doesn't really work well with the super-trained AI and for that I've stopped altogether fighting it.

 

Also, in 1.2.7, the AI seems not to fire during the initial head-on pass and keeps flying ahead till you're after him. ED really dumbed down that aspect but the other aspect of maneuvers needs some serious revision.

 

I agree its not perfect, but all the same, its acceptable at this point.

[Merlin-27]

I don't chase him (except when I have an energy advantage). I just circle below keeping him on my lift line while he strains his engine.

 

The biggest advantage the AI has is that it NEVER harms it's own aircraft. (except for an occasional collision) This leads people to believe that you have to fly "perfectly". That is not the case... or I would not get any kills :D

 

1st Rule: Don't let them stay behind you for any length of time. Rolling Scissors work brilliantly to remove them.

 

2nd Rule: Anticipate the zoom climb. Following with energy in a climb is the easiest kill vs. the FW190 AI.

 

3rd Rule: Avoid head on gun passes.The AI is a superior marksman. You may be successful a few times but the odds are against you (Especially when those cannon shells hit you)

 

The Dora is faster (at lower altitudes) and out climbs the Mustang. The Mustang turns a bit better (the Dora can hardly turn at all). If you can damage the Dora enough it will head for home at its airfield by the lake and you can jump him when he descends.

 

The DCS AI Dora is not much faster if any. We catch them and outrun them daily in the Mustang on the deck. In addition, I out climb the AI FW190 all the time in the P-51D. If you engage with less energy you will get predictable results.

 

Let him fight in the vertical. You can't match him. But you can beat him in the horizontal. If you stay low and he can't dive to build energy, you've got him.

 

Just not true. Let's not spread these views as fact when they are disproved all day long. Of course, it may be easier for you to manage your energy by keeping him low but you have also made yourself an easy target for any other bandits and have exhausted most of your E. A turning fight on the deck should be your last resort. With some practice you can fight the AI 190 in the vertical with no problem...when the odds are 2 or 3 to 1 it gets a bit more complicated.

[ZaltysZ]

so no lift vector on attacker then. So, what else can you offer me?

 

No. I didn't say not to put lift vector, I said not to put it blindly, or in other words: not to use it as rule of thumb action for defense. Blind application of rules of thumb can quickly cur your thumbs off :smilewink: My advice: put yourself in attacker's shoes and try imagining what attacker sees. If you manage that, then you will be able to choose something very uncomfortable for him, what is the point of your defense. If it is too hard, then switch to analysis after every fight: watch the track or tacview, and look from attackers perspective, i.e. use external camera on attacker and so on.

[HotTom]

The biggest advantage the AI has is that it NEVER harms it's own aircraft. (except for an occasional collision) This leads people to believe that you have to fly "perfectly". That is not the case... or I would not get any kills :D

 

1st Rule: Don't let them stay behind you for any length of time. Rolling Scissors work brilliantly to remove them.

 

2nd Rule: Anticipate the zoom climb. Following with energy in a climb is the easiest kill vs. the FW190 AI.

 

3rd Rule: Avoid head on gun passes.The AI is a superior marksman. You may be successful a few times but the odds are against you (Especially when those cannon shells hit you)

 

 

 

The DCS AI Dora is not much faster if any. We catch them and outrun them daily in the Mustang on the deck. In addition, I out climb the AI FW190 all the time in the P-51D. If you engage with less energy you will get predictable results.

 

 

 

Just not true. Let's not spread these views as fact when they are disproved all day long. Of course, it may be easier for you to manage your energy by keeping him low but you have also made yourself an easy target for any other bandits and have exhausted most of your E. A turning fight on the deck should be your last resort. With some practice you can fight the AI 190 in the vertical with no problem...when the odds are 2 or 3 to 1 it gets a bit more complicated.

 

Sorry, Merlin, but -- while I agree completely with your three rules -- I disagree on relative performance and so does historical fact and the DCS models. And I don't know who the "we" is you are talking about. You have a mouse in your pocket?

 

Your experience in on line play may be different -- I don't play on line; the jerk quotient in any on line sim is too high and in my old age my annoyance threshold is too low to willingly put up with them -- but against the AI Dora, the Dora is slightly faster in a level flight chase. I can't catch it even using WEP.

 

If you read my post to mean that I turn fight the Dora you read incorrectly. I use the Mustangs slightly better turn ability to avoid his attack runs but mostly just keep him on my lift line (yes, Wild Bill, use it) and wait until he exhausts his own energy state. That's why I keep him low. It limits his ability to dive away and put energy in his bank account.

 

I agree if I catch the Dora at a low energy level (as I said) and his attempt to zoom is limited, I can outzoom him and fill him with holes if he stalls out fairly low. But if he keeps climbing, all I will do is cook my engine trying to keep up with him, even with the air and oil cooler flaps fully open. It's pretty easy to tell when he is beginning a zoom climb with low energy.

 

The Mustang was not a good climber. The Dora was. DCS modeled them correctly.

Edited March 4, 2014 by HotTom

[Merlin-27]

Sorry, Merlin, but -- while I agree completely with your three rules -- I disagree on relative performance and so does historical fact and the DCS models. And I don't know who the "we" is you are talking about. You have a mouse in your pocket?

 

Your experience in on line play may be different -- I don't play on line; the jerk quotient in any on line sim is too high and in my old age my annoyance threshold is too low to willingly put up with them -- but against the AI Dora, the Dora is slightly faster in a level flight chase. I can't catch it even using WEP.

 

If you read my post to mean that I turn fight the Dora you read incorrectly. I use the Mustangs slightly better turn ability to avoid his attack runs but mostly just keep him on my lift line (yes, Wild Bill, use it) and wait until he exhausts his own energy state. That's why I keep him low. It limits his ability to dive away and put energy in his bank account.

 

I agree if I catch the Dora at a low energy level (as I said) and his attempt to zoom is limited, I can outzoom him and fill him with holes if he stalls out fairly low. But if he keeps climbing, all I will do is cook my engine trying to keep up with him, even with the air and oil cooler flaps fully open. It's pretty easy to tell when he is beginning a zoom climb with low energy.

 

The Mustang was not a good climber. The Dora was. DCS modeled them correctly.

 

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, The "mouse in my pocket" is a virtual squadron of very capable P-51D pilots who regularly out perform the DCS FW190-D9 AI, Maybe we were issued a higher octane gas than you :)

 

To be perfectly clear, I never spoke of historical accuracy in this matter. Simply the fact that the perceived performance advantage (in the sim) is not as severe as some would like to think.

 

I'd be happy to show you this "impossible feat" firsthand anytime you'd like to visit our combat server, but you have already expressed, quite clearly, your disdain for all things multiplayer.

 

And as another aside, to stem any animosity, my statements were not intended to bash your methods but only to clarify that such things are, in fact, possible.

[HotTom]

No animosity taken, Merlin. Just a good discussion. Nice to see folks discussing tactics here!

[fastfreddie]

Since I fly with P51 with my Thrustmaster Warthog which many here probably have also one of the hats(bottom right) is dedicated to the gyro range(Up/down) and width of the wing (right/left). One question I have for those that use it. The manual states it takes the reticle about one second for it to be correct so I take it this means you can't be jerking it around and expect good results?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Since I fly with P51 with my Thrustmaster Warthog which many here probably have also one of the hats(bottom right) is dedicated to the gyro range(Up/down) and width of the wing (right/left). One question I have for those that use it. The manual states it takes the reticle about one second for it to be correct so I take it this means you can't be jerking it around and expect good results?

 

correct. you must have the dot of the gyro on the target cockpit and the diamonds touching the wingtips (or as illustrations dictate relative to aspect). it becomes very accurate with more time placed on target. The problem now is that we are given a superhuman AI, a more powerful aircraft that don't seem to budge with a tonne of holes placed in it, so its better to practice on unarmed AI.

 

I open the 1vs1 mission, remove AI payload, or set it to 1%, then check that RTB on bingo or winchester is disabled. That way you can really work without fear that you'll get hit critically, but still the engine must be managed which probably means you'll be so far behind the SFM (simplified flight model) which is pulling all those crazy stunts and giving you heartache.

 

 

To better practice, you need multiplayer with very low ping.

[marcus4hire]

My .02. Which is worth just that after about, oh, 20 minutes total fighting time against the Dora and using the K14 in a realistic manner.

 

The trick, I have found, is taking the time to plan your attack and set up a strong firing solution. Take the time and make it count. Get the range just right, let it settle, and hammer him!

 

I have zero kills against the Dora. :doh:

 

But, I can get hits in every engagement and I think I had him last time but I overstressed my airframe. No fun.

 

Still learning the trick to fighting the Mustang. So far, I ignore the Dora's gyrations. I set up a climbing defensive circle, keeping him in sight, if he closes, I'll perform an Immelman and, in short, get altitude on him. Then, zoom'n boom. Not that simple, and still working the kinks out but I like to think I am on the right path.

 

Open to any tips on radiator, blower, etc. settings to put the Mustang in combat trim for best energy conservation. Also, open to idea on how to avoid those high speed/high AOA stalls. You can lose a lot of energy fast if you are not careful and down low, that is bad news.

[HotTom]

Keep your radiators (both oil and coolant) open for at least 20 seconds (so they open fully; you have to hold them there or they'll pop back into neutral and stay at their last setting) and then leave them there. If you're heating up, go into a shallow dive and build up speed so there is more air passing over the radiators. The Packard engine stays happiest at 250 mph or faster. If you overheat, drop into full rich mixture setting until you cool down.

 

Keep the Dora on your Lift Line as much as possible. Don't try to match his zoom climbs; you can't. Similarly, he can out run you in level flight, even if you are using WEP. Let him go. He'll be back.

 

Eventually, he will try to RTB (the airfield by the lake) and he will be vulnerable.

 

For the accelerated stalls, get a force feedback stick. I always have plenty of warning with my G940.

 

You'll figure it out. Hope that helps.:thumbup:

Edited April 10, 2014 by HotTom