ZaltysZ Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 ive had it over flat terrain more than rough, and usually the flat plains near the sea. Go figure. In my experience, errors in range calculation are related to altitude change. I have suspicion, that system only uses target altitude and Shkval angle for passive range estimation. Something like this: laser is used for precise measurement of slant range, then it is used together with Shkval angle for calculating target altitude; further range updates are done by calculating altitude delta between target altitude and helicopter altitude, and then using it together with Shkval angle. This works fine, unless altitude delta is calculated incorrectly, and this can happen in 2 ways: a) Shkval is slewed to location, which has different elevation than the lased location b) helicopter altitude changes without system understanding that - i.e. if radar altimeter is used as source, and helicopter flies at constant AGL over terrain of various elevation. Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
GGTharos Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I may not be remembering correctly but, I believe information flows to the ABRIS, but for the most part, not the other way around. The SHKVAL use trig to compute the probable distance when not using the laser. Just my guess though, I don't recall the details that well. It can only use the ABRIS map data - and this could be an other big factor for the calculation: the resolution of the data. The elevation data is not available for every square foot of georgia. It rather is stored for chunks or "tiles" of ... don't know, perhaps varying resolutions of 10x10 ft, 100x100 ft, etc. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
lmp Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) I may not be remembering correctly but, I believe information flows to the ABRIS, but for the most part, not the other way around. The SHKVAL use trig to compute the probable distance when not using the laser. Just my guess though, I don't recall the details that well. Initially, that's what I thought it would do. But then in my example (target on a hillside, computer always assumes terrain is flat), range would be underestimated as I slewed the shkval down from the lased point and overestimated as I slew it up. In my tests, if there was a pattern at all, it was the other way around, so there must be more to it. If it's not using ABRIS data, maybe radar altimeter data instead? For example if the terrain is 1000m ASL below me and 1500m ASL at the lased point 5km in front of me, assume it's steadily raising at that rate (100m per 1km of range) and use trig from there? Or maybe I was just sloppy with my tests? The possibilities are endless really, without good data on how it's supposed to work it's impossible to design experiments that would prove if it's working as intended or not. Edited March 7, 2014 by lmp
Flagrum Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 I may not be remembering correctly but, I believe information flows to the ABRIS, but for the most part, not the other way around. The SHKVAL use trig to compute the probable distance when not using the laser. Just my guess though, I don't recall the details that well. You are right, I think. I had the A-10C in mind, but our Ka-50's ABRIS is all in all more a retrofit that is not really well integrated with other systems. So it really is unlikely that terrain data is shared.
karambiatos Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 ~snip~ yes but the issue happens on flat planes as well. someone said that at sharp angles i.e. low altitude the shkval can get big errors when slewing it, but this isnt mentioned in the manual, so idk whats really happening, but to me the range calculation is so annoying id rather not have it, makes night fighting a right pain. A 1000 flights, a 1000 crashes, perfect record. =&arrFilter_pf[gameversion]=&arrFilter_pf[filelang]=&arrFilter_pf[aircraft]=&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC"] Check out my random mods and things
stray cat Posted March 8, 2014 Author Posted March 8, 2014 About quick target acquisition: From the weapons on board the ka50 and the way they are employed, the ka50 is more of a "ninjacopter" (it is called that way in wargame airland battle), as in, you sneak up on targets, shoot some vikhr and flee. I was in this scenario at some point: Flying over a town looking for targets. Overlooked several vehicles within 2km and they opened fire on me. What is the best course of action? 1. Flee out of range, then turn, and attack with maximum range weaponry 2. Lock cannon, rockets to front and strafe them 3. Get a quick lock with the helmet sight and open fire Any option that needs a precise target lock feels not really possible if I am flying a quick turn, dodging aa fire from targets that are close. So am I doing something wrong if I cant return fire quickly while being shot at or is it just the way it is with the ka50? Note I do not have TRACKIR and mapping the mouse to targeting and firing keys does not seem to work.
ZaltysZ Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 Initially, that's what I thought it would do. But then in my example (target on a hillside, computer always assumes terrain is flat), range would be underestimated as I slewed the shkval down from the lased point and overestimated as I slew it up. Did you take the signs (+ and -) into account. If Shkval looks at target, which is above your altitude, Shkval angle will have opposite sign than when it looks at target, which is below your altitude. Let's consider these examples: a) helicopter is at 500m, target is at 100m on the slope of hill: moving Shkval up should overestimate the range, moving down - underestimate. b) helicoper is at 500m, target is at 600m on the slope of hill: moving Shkval up should underestimate the range, moving down - overestimate. Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
tsumikae Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 About quick target acquisition: What is the best course of action? 1. Flee out of range, then turn, and attack with maximum range weaponry 2. Lock cannon, rockets to front and strafe them 3. Get a quick lock with the helmet sight and open fire Aaaand the correct answer is number one: get the hell out of there and keep flying until you can hear radio coms in Spanish. Number two: why not, but if they are already firing on you, chances are they'll get you first. Number 3: hahaha no.
ZaltysZ Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 Overlooked several vehicles within 2km and they opened fire on me. If they are firing at you, you have made a mistake and should retreat. Basically, if targets can fire at you, you are too close; if you can't fire at them without them returning the fire, you are engaging wrong targets. You need to understand that this is mistake from your side, and you should worry more about how to avoid repeating it than worry about how to get out of it alive. Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
lmp Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 @ZaltysZ I was aiming down only. @stray cat You can't avoid being vulnerable when guiding ATGMs, cause you have to be either stationary or flying straight without much maneuvering... In AAA territory that'll get you killed. So you want to back out to a point where they can't shoot at you, park the chopper in autohover and start the Vikhr party. The only time I knowingly fly into the enemy's range is when I want to do a rocket strafe. And even then I never go anywhere near anything heavier than AKs and maybe one or two HMGs.
Flagrum Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 Aaaand the correct answer is number one: get the hell out of there and keep flying until you can hear radio coms in Spanish. Number two: why not, but if they are already firing on you, chances are they'll get you first. Number 3: hahaha no. I'd also say 1) is the way to go - or even better: don't get that close in the first place (yeah, and the next question is how to do that - how to find the enemys and gain situational awareness ... :o) But perhaps also to consider: targets in urban areas are usually hard to find and difficult to fight from the distance. So, perhaps honing your ninja skills would not be a too bad idea either. Sneak up, fly low (and even lower! :o), use buildings as cover, etc.
PFunk1606688187 Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 I realize a lot of people spout 'trim constantly' but I don't use the trimmer much at all. Maybe if I need to steady the thing when I'm preparing to fire on targets, but honestly with most stuff required to engage targets mapped to the hotas even then it's not a huge priority for me. TIR and head tracking are a great aid to this as well. My point is that I don't think it is automatically required and an automatic fail if you don't. I personally like the stick pushing back a little rather than dead center. Even with the warthog I find having it out of center allows for a bit more precise manipulation. To each their own though. I haven't even clicked Submit Reply and can already here people shouting this at me: :megalol: I honestly don't know how you do it, needing to have your hand pushing on the stick at all times. That thing you say about feeling like its more accurate if you have the stick under pressure, I'm pretty sure thats the result of our crappier than real life spring centring sticks at work. Very few consumer sticks aren't mushy at the centre point. Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.
Bushmanni Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 About quick target acquisition:... Basic principle of tactics is to engage the enemy in a manner that prevents him engaging you or at least his chance of winning is lot less than yours (30/70 at most). When you are unable to achieve this you try escape and if that's not possible you try to prolong the engagement in hopes of enemy making a mistake that allows you to escape or turn the tables. If the enemy is about 2km away and shooting at you with machine guns there's a very good chance of running away from them successfully and then engaging them at stand-off range. If you happened to stumble upon an enemy AAA that's less than 500m away your best bet would be to try to shoot him with a quick HMS aimed burst from cannon. I have run in to a well hidden ZU-23s few times (basically almost overflying them) and survived by making a quick turn and killing it with HMS and gun before it got a shot off at me. Taking a successfull quick shot with rockets (or gun in fixed mode) takes some skill to pull off and a very close target right in front of you. Hitting something with rockets has always required a well flown run in for me. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron
Isegrim Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 Basics in Helicopter weapons delivery and tactics. https://sites.google.com/site/kriegsimulation/home/air-warfare-hq/dcs-black-shark-tactics-primer "Blyat Naaaaa" - Izlom
xaoslaad Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 P*Funk, I'm sure that is the case. In a real chopper center would probably be no more mushy than any other position and so just as accurate. Even if it were, trimming holds it out of center so it would be a moot point most of the time anyway.
ShuRugal Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 I was in this scenario at some point: Flying over a town looking for targets. Overlooked several vehicles within 2km and they opened fire on me. What is the best course of action? 1. Flee out of range, then turn, and attack with maximum range weaponry 2. Lock cannon, rockets to front and strafe them 3. Get a quick lock with the helmet sight and open fire Note I do not have TRACKIR and mapping the mouse to targeting and firing keys does not seem to work. In this situation, not having TIR is going to kill you. The best response to this situation i have been able to work out is as follows: 0: flares. if they have an IR sam in the group, you need to be kicking off flares the moment you are aware of them to survive 1: HMS shkval onto enemy units and lock (vehicle or ground, whatever it lands on) to get range (you'll need accurate range in just a second or two) 2: accelerate rapidly on an oblique course towards (but not directly over) the enemy, maneuver erratically to spoil their aim. 3: cue up S-13s (or S-8 if you chose those, but they don't work as well) 4: with all speed, line up the best-aimed salvo you are able and start dumping rockets 5: once your pods are empty, break off (do NOT overfly hostiles) 6: full-power dive to <50 meters and egress at maximum possible speed. 7: continue maneuvering. if any BMP-2 survived, they can and will pick you off with their 2A42 if you fly straight. This whole process should take less than 10 seconds to execute fully and should be over before you are within 1km. If you pass inside 1km of enemy armor, not much can save you besides luck.
msalama Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Not wanting to sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but check out the attached track still to see how effective the Shark can be when used properly. Also observe the inevitable error in the end where I almost tip the thing over when taxiing off the runway :D I just hope the track plays back correctly since track PB has been somewhat broken lately...Soganlug_defence_16-03-2014.trk The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.
Chromius Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 You asked if the trimmer was used often in RL, here is a link to a cockpit video, turn up the volume you can here the trimmer clicks.
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