No true headphone 3D audio in games!

[Bucic]

[Pikey]

I was thinking about this the other day. At the time i was sure no one had done it but i was wrong. We will need moving 3d sound more than ever when Occulus Rift becomes mainstream.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

For "true" surround sound, you need more than 2 speakers .

 

There are headphones that have 3 speakers for each ear. They are "true" surround, altough an actual surround speaker setup ((meaning, actually having speakers BEHIND you) is way better because the sound quality of those actual surround headphones is usually quite poor.

 

Yes you can get a vague hint of "surround" with stereo speakers/headphones, but it's not as nice as an actual setup.

 

For fps shooters i personally find actual surround quite important. (for better owning of newbs) , but for every other game genre , stereo with a nice subwoofer is just fine.

 

Now to find out what this thread is about ... -_-

[sobek]

For "true" surround sound, you need more than 2 speakers .

 

Stop right there because you couldn't be more wrong, period. This does not hold true for loudspeakers and it certainly does not hold true for headphones.

 

If you don't believe the myriads of scientific publications that exist right now that explain the principle, then just try out the virtual barber shop demo with a set of good conventional closed headphones.

Edited May 16, 2014 by sobek

[*Rage*]

So without reading the science behind all this can someone answer a few simple questions for me?

 

Currently I use Realtek onboard sound from my mobo (Realtek® ALC892 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC) with Sennheisers PC350 (closed stereo headset)

 

What am I missing out from in DCS (only - not interested in FPS etc)?

Whats to gain from a dedicated sound card/7.1 headset when flying?

 

Thanks

[Brisse]

Yes you can get a vague hint of "surround" with stereo speakers/headphones, but it's not as nice as an actual setup.

 

Vague hint? You clearly have not heard good simulation through a good pair of headphones with proper amplification and DAC. I never use my Z5500 5.1 speaker setup anymore. Sure it is way better than the average headphones but my headphone setup beats the crap out of it even when it comes to positional audio. Why? Becouse the simulated surround i get in the headphones is in a perfectly inert enviroment. The speakers have the downside of being affected by the room they are placed in.

[sobek]

Btw. ambisonics has slowly but steadily made its way into gaming.

[sobek]

A dedicated soundcard will usually offer better "performance", not in power but in things like signal to noise ratio, linearity, channel crosstalk, resistance to electromagnetic interference, etc. Most noticeable to a layman will probably be the noise level when no sound is playing but the volume is cranked up.

[*Rage*]

A dedicated soundcard will usually offer better "performance", not in power but in things like signal to noise ratio, linearity, channel crosstalk, resistance to electromagnetic interference, etc. Most noticeable to a layman will probably be the noise level when no sound is playing but the volume is cranked up.

 

So for DCS purposes...not much then.

[Brisse]

I'm not saying every DCS user should go out and buy dedicated soundcards :D

With average headphones, that's just a waste of money anyway, and DCS don't need that kind of sound perfection. It does not even need surround sound in my opinion to be enjoyed. It's just a bonus you get if you already have some kind of surround setup for other reasons. I certainly did not have DCS in mind when getting an 700$ headphone setup for my PC. That's because I'm a hobby musician and audiophile.

[Bucic]

Guys, soundcard recommendations is OT here. Let's start over from post #29.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Stop right there because you couldn't be more wrong, period. This does not hold true for loudspeakers and it certainly does not hold true for headphones.

 

If you don't believe the myriads of scientific publications that exist right now that explain the principle, then just try out the virtual barber shop demo with a set of good conventional closed headphones.

 

The very definition of "surround sound" dictates that the sound has to be coming from AROUND you. You are "surrounded" by sound.

You can't be surrounded by two speakers in front of you.

 

No scientific study in the world can change this fact.

 

Sure you can trick the brain making it kind of feel like it's coming from behind you, but it's not.

For sound to be coming from behind you, a speaker has to be behind you. That's all i'm saying.:(

Edited May 17, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[Bucic]

The very definition of "surround sound" dictates that the sound has to be coming from AROUND you. You are "surrounded" by sound.

You can't be surrounded by two speakers in front of you.

 

No scientific study in the world can change this fact.

 

Sure you can trick the brain making it kind of feel like it's coming from behind you, but it's not.

For sound to be coming from behind you, a speaker has to be behind you. That's all i'm saying.:(

Yes, SURROUND is about sounds coming from all AROUND you instead of precisely the direction they should, i.e. surround sucks, while binaural is superrior.

 

Now get back after you did your research, as suggested. The bardber shop demo, HRTF demos, AMD trueaduio demos, all with stereo headphones.

 

PS. Sobek is a sound engineer. Not your English resumes 'engineer' (e.g. tying cables together in a studio). He's a university graduate of said specialty. Just saying.

[sobek]

He's a university graduate of said specialty.

 

Sorry for OT, but i guess not correcting you here would technically make me an impostor. I am one analysis of BWV 851 short of a BSc in Electrical/Audio Engineering, so not yet a graduate. :)

 

I do know a thing or two about human sound perception, though. ;)

[sobek]

The very definition of "surround sound" dictates that the sound has to be coming from AROUND you. You are "surrounded" by sound.

You can't be surrounded by two speakers in front of you.

 

No scientific study in the world can change this fact.

 

Sure you can trick the brain making it kind of feel like it's coming from behind you, but it's not.

For sound to be coming from behind you, a speaker has to be behind you. That's all i'm saying.:(

 

You are getting into headache territory there.

 

Technically in a surround setup, you aren't surrounded either. There are discrete directions the sound is coming from, yet the brain is tricked into thinking that the sound can come from directions in between as well because in nature the situation that two non-coincidental (ergo not in the same point in space) sound sources play a signal that is so strongly correlated is practically impossible, so the brain is fooled into creating what is called a phantom source that lies between those two sources.

 

Additionally, binaural audio is vastly superior to surround because it can recreate sources that lie outside the transversal plane (above and below).

 

Btw. Bucic, read the article about Ambisonics yet? It will make your brain hurt, i promise. :)

[Brisse]

Additionally, binaural audio is vastly superior to surround because it can recreate sources that lie outside the transversal plane (above and below).

 

Btw. Bucic, read the article about Ambisonics yet? It will make your brain hurt, i promise. :)

 

Could not agree more with the first part there.

 

Ambisonics seem interestning. It's the first time I've heard about it. Thx for sharing that.

[Bucic]

I am one analysis of BWV 851 short of a BSc in Electrical/Audio Engineering, so not yet a graduate. :)

 

I do know a thing or two about human sound perception, though. ;)

Oh, whatever! ;)

 

Btw. Bucic, read the article about Ambisonics yet? It will make your brain hurt, i promise. :)

Not yet. After you saying this I'm not sure I will. :)

[camsr]

Ambisonics looks cool, never heard it before. But it's just like a glorified surround sound with the same problems. Headphones actually do a better job with postional audio. But the perception of the sound from Ambisonics is more realistic.

[-WildCat-]

Ambisonics looks cool, never heard it before. But it's just like a glorified surround sound with the same problems. Headphones actually do a better job with postional audio. But the perception of the sound from Ambisonics is more realistic.

A recording that is encoded in an Ambisonic format is unlike a recording that is encoded in a regular surround sound format (such as 5.1 or 7.1) because an Ambisonic recording can be played on any number of speakers in any layout, given the appropriate decoder for that layout is used.

 

Ambisonics encodes audio in such a way that sources of sound may emanate from any arbitrary place on an imaginary sphere surrounding the listener.

 

The Ambisonic decoder works out how to translate that Ambisonic sound-field into a multi-channel audio stream for a given speaker layout (eg: 5.1, 7.1, 10.2, 14.1, 22.2, etc). It can also decode the audio into a stereo feed for headphones and, if the decoder implements HRTFs in that process, then you'll be able to experience full 3D sound in your headphones.

[Bucic]

Hi Wildcat?

Have you given thought to the positionalaudio-dedicated wiki?

[-WildCat-]

Hi Wildcat?

Have you given thought to the positionalaudio-dedicated wiki?

I have, but not enough. I'll add it to my to-do list so that I'm reminded of it next time I'm looking for something to do. :)

[Bucic]

The subject cought on another forums

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123232676&postcount=61

 

From the very thread:

The Nameless Guide To PC Gaming Audio (with binaural headphone surround sound)

 

Technology from 1998

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSlbyLAksM

-oSlbyLAksM

Edited July 30, 2014 by Bucic

[HiJack]

We want this! :thumbup:

[Bucic]

A bit of necromancy I hope mods won't mind as it's the only thread on the forums dedicated to positional audio.

 

So... What's been cooking? This may not be news to some, but Steam is actually making some progress towards getting us the 90's technology back.

HRTF Demo - Steam Audio - YouTube —

 

 

And a sad reminder - many games... don't even get flat stereo right :shocking: That includes DCS

No headphone-dedicated mixing mode - ED Forums