New material for flat and cylindrical displays

[Flim]

To each his own... you go look at the Cube thread and check out what I worked on last year. I can say that there are plenty of issues with projection and HMD setups, we'll see which way it goes in the future.

 

 

 

Would like to see a video of the first post pic...

Edited April 23, 2014 by Flim

[donbinator]

Zahry, maybe it's already been discussed or is "well known" and if so I apologize, but where would I mount the three projectors for a three projector system with your screen? I'm already running around with a tape measurer...:). Could I settle for two projectors?

[zahry]

To each his own... you go look at the Cube thread and check out what I worked on last year. I can say that there are plenty of issues with projection and HMD setups, we'll see which way it goes in the future.

 

Would like to see a video of the first post pic...

sure - link is here. It was actually taken at the same time as the photos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbeZuXSWwEg. - the warping was just a rough stretch but it gives you the idea.

 

I looked through your thread earlier but no pics of it in action - lot of people asking for it though. Must have missed it somehow.

 

Can you please post DCS screenshot as I've asked earlier from the rift you've got?

 

Zahry, maybe it's already been discussed or is "well known" and if so I apologize, but where would I mount the three projectors for a three projector system with your screen? I'm already running around with a tape measurer...:). Could I settle for two projectors?

 

the three projectors are mounted overhead, I'll take some pics today - luckily I've setup the trident for 2 projectors a week ago :-) (need to do the W/B which shouldn't take too long )

 

As a professional pilot myself I can't see myself using anything which puts backlit screens a couple of inches away from my eyes. The long term affects are concerning to say the least. Maybe v.high res OLED or unknown technology screens are better but my concerns will stand until I see a proper study done on any Rift hardware that is released to the public.

 

I'm very impressed by your setup and the quality of your screens. With 2 kids, space in my house is at a premium right now, but at some point in the future I may be in touch.

 

As for Flim's version of immersion... I can think of nothing more immersion breaking than to have to move your goggles up on your head briefly to be able to see a simpit switch or a key on your keyboard.

 

thanks druid :-)

edit - bit of research is done - here is laboratory study about effects of blue light http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v13/n4/abs/eye1999142a.html - it's related to concerns about using celphones and touchpads close to eyes for prolonged periods (those displays emit high spike in 400 - 450nm wavelength with high energy = blue light) . Thanks to the square law it will be even more relevant to OR which uses same displays in much closer proximity.

Edited April 23, 2014 by zahry

[Flim]

Here is one I took before I added the 5th ( back View Projector )... Honestly I didn't take a lot of pics because I was busy trying to make it all work. I can tell you there is a lot to making this work correctly... type of projectors, distance from wall, mounting, aligning, etc... the list goes on. Also, it takes a lot of tweaking on the PC as well- View ports, performance, video cards. The last setup I built before I moved was 5 projectors, 360-180 Vertical with one touch screen using Helios. I had it working nicely with around 40 fps on a single video card. I never took a video of the last setup, but there are a few links to earlier testing. Now, the view point will not look right in the videos because the eye position needs to be in the center of the Cube to look correct. A lot of the tech info is in the thread.

 

 

PIC of the CUBE A-10 PIT---- this pit was specifically built for the Cube... Seat height, etc...

 

 

 

VID LINK

 

 

 

Now, if you can figure out a professional projector setup with the top view, then I would be in. In the future anyway, need a house first. ---- Btw, Sorry about getting a little heated in the Topic, we all should be working together to make simming better!

Edited April 23, 2014 by Flim

[MacFevre]

That thing is beautiful! And you took it down? After all that work? I think I might wander over and take a look at that thread.

[The_Nephilim]

To be honest - I would rather go back to the original topic. I've started the thread to help people who want to fiddle with things to get visual surround for their cockpits and to help to bring the home simulation closer to the professional setups. I know how tricky to set up something like that for first time so if anyone needs a help let me know and I'll try to do what I can. If I won't answer straight away send me a message via website (just in case I'll get distracted by something)

 

and just to lighten up the grim mood - here is a vid of the rift 2.0 in action ;)

 

 

um that video is magic tricks on the beach did I miss something?? I also emailed you hopefully I can hear back from you soon!!

[The_Nephilim]

um that video is magic tricks on the beach did I miss something?? I also emailed you hopefully I can hear back from you soon!!

 

I am in the Camp of Bigger is Better..

 

 

Edited April 25, 2014 by The_Nephilim

[zahry]

Here is one I took before I added the 5th ( back View Projector )... Honestly I didn't take a lot of pics because I was busy trying to make it all work. I can tell you there is a lot to making this work correctly... type of projectors, distance from wall, mounting, aligning, etc... the list goes on. Also, it takes a lot of tweaking on the PC as well- View ports, performance, video cards. The last setup I built before I moved was 5 projectors, 360-180 Vertical with one touch screen using Helios. I had it working nicely with around 40 fps on a single video card. I never took a video of the last setup, but there are a few links to earlier testing. Now, the view point will not look right in the videos because the eye position needs to be in the center of the Cube to look correct. A lot of the tech info is in the thread.

 

 

 

PIC of the CUBE A-10 PIT---- this pit was specifically built for the Cube... Seat height, etc...

 

VID LINK

 

 

 

Now, if you can figure out a professional projector setup with the top view, then I would be in. In the future anyway, need a house first. ---- Btw, Sorry about getting a little heated in the Topic, we all should be working together to make simming better!

 

Thanks for the photos and vid - what a nice setup and what a pity to take this down! It's pretty much semiprofessional setup and I've seen some professional ones which looked worst :-).

 

Have you tried to round up the corners with some plywood to create some radius to make it easier for the eyes to transition from one panel to other? The rest of the geometrical nuisances can be tweaked out with warping and blending software :pilotfly:. Last thing would be sorting out the projection surface for better contrast and higher ambient light tolerance. (also the optomas are not ICC calibrated and have quite poor contrast and resolution compared to BQ1080ST). I'm very sorry but the rift cannot possibly replace this - perhaps only if it the rift marketing propaganda was true...

 

btw - just spoke with friend of mine today morning (you might know him as Hungo from Hovercontrol) - he just mothballed his rift after 10hrs and he told me I was spot on about the OR when I was telling him he is was going to get something lot different than he expected - I have his permission to quote him on it. His words were "It's like flying in lego land looking through screen door"

 

I definitely think HMD have it's place on market in a future. I really like the idea and I'm sure as long as there will be competitions between manufactures driving the development of the HMDs forward it will eventually become useable and of good quality. The proposed reverse lighting box technology utilizing super high res screens 19,200 x 10,800 is one of the key elements and I'm so glad somebody finally figured out how to do it - perhaps my kids might be able to buy these for $300 when they'll be my age but I don't think it will happen anytime soon (and by the time we will probably have 24K projectors or startrek holodecks ;).

 

As I said - I like the idea of HMDs but I have serious issue with what rift marketing propaganda is doing to people because it has nothing to do with rift real capabilities and it is pure unadulterated buls%^t. At the moment it is huge bubble of epic proportions - I suspect the bubble will burst after public release once people will sober up from the rift trip they are taking now in their fantasies.

 

but back to something productive - I'm seriously starting to play with the idea for top view extension - it is doable but key issues for me are:

 

Manufacturing price,

Size

Shipping size (and price)

End user price.

Number of projectors required

Setup difficulty

 

The biggest issue is the shipping price. I have to keep playing with designs and once I'll have something practical what can be packed down to 132cm with 42cm diameter (max size permitted by NZ post) once I get above this size the shipping price doubles.

 

here is image what outputs the BQ1080s (the image covers 4 projectors) - the second photo is detail of the previous photo - single projector detail (just camera lens zoomed in and absolutely no photoshop or other digital tricks) -

[HuggyBear]

Perhaps anyone who'll spend $5000 on projectors and a screen won't care about high shipping charges? :)

 

- Bear

[zahry]

Perhaps anyone who'll spend $5000 on projectors and a screen won't care about high shipping charges? :)

 

- Bear

question is how many people would buy it. At the moment 270º setup with overhead view (semi - dome) would cost about 6k + cost of 5 projectors and about $1000 shipping...

[zahry]

um that video is magic tricks on the beach did I miss something?? I also emailed you hopefully I can hear back from you soon!!

 

They were just making fun of people :) they told them what to expect and what they will feel and how they will feel and then they put blacked out sky mask on. :-) and that was enough to create completely realistic illusion of flight for them - same con rift marketing uses ;)

 

I am in the Camp of Bigger is Better..

looking good - is it the monitors without bezels? :-). will get onto the email now

[Kuky]

That is a lot indeed, very very few would be able to aford it.

 

For me personally if someone can come up with nice dome projection setup where everything (including projectors) would cost $5000 or so, I could actually aford it (I can take from my homeloan that I saved up on by paying more than minimum payment).

 

One other issue is, for these setups you are using separate viewport in DCS for each projector? If so, FPS must be horrible, even with 3 viewports that I am use it's really hits on the FPS... I can imagine adding another for top view or more to get more than 180° wide FoV.

 

So for me at least, the cost of this setup (if not over the top) it's doable, but loosing on all the FPS makes it pointless again... so sad :(

[zahry]

That is a lot indeed, very very few would be able to aford it.

 

For me personally if someone can come up with nice dome projection setup where everything (including projectors) would cost $5000 or so, I could actually aford it (I can take from my homeloan that I saved up on by paying more than minimum payment).

 

One other issue is, for these setups you are using separate viewport in DCS for each projector? If so, FPS must be horrible, even with 3 viewports that I am use it's really hits on the FPS... I can imagine adding another for top view or more to get more than 180° wide FoV.

 

So for me at least, the cost of this setup (if not over the top) it's doable, but loosing on all the FPS makes it pointless again... so sad :(

 

at the moment I'm using 3 viewports and I tweaked few files to optimize the textures for higher FPS - FC2 is fast as lightning - same Ka50 but since 1.2 the DCS world is quite slow even on single monitor and low res (1920 x 1080) few clouds and some explosions and I can have a coffee between frames.

 

here are the projectors mounts (one is missing - not too hard to guess it is permanently mounted now ;-) :-D ) - the photos were shot with flash which nicely shows how the screen can turn white with the right kind of light

 

 

 

[metalnwood]

That is a lot indeed, very very few would be able to aford it.

 

For me personally if someone can come up with nice dome projection setup where everything (including projectors) would cost $5000 or so, I could actually aford it (I can take from my homeloan that I saved up on by paying more than minimum payment).

 

It could probably be done. I was working on a project that had many thousands of dollars of optics and the had an optician do some designs for a component or two.

 

I mentioned to him about dome projection and what could be done using optics for correction for the use of simulators. He said it wasn't a really big deal, most of the cost was getting the one of lens made but even then it isn't as bad as you might think.

[BIGNEWY]

I like projector setups, I ran one for a while, and these domes look amazing but the running cost for someone who uses it everyday is high as bulbs are expensive to replace.

Which is why I stopped using mine and decided to wait for the oculus as it will be a cheaper way to immerse myself in the sim.

 

Saying that if you can afford a setup like this, I suppose money is no object. :)

[The_Nephilim]

They were just making fun of people :) they told them what to expect and what they will feel and how they will feel and then they put blacked out sky mask on. :-) and that was enough to create completely realistic illusion of flight for them - same con rift marketing uses ;)

 

 

looking good - is it the monitors without bezels? :-). will get onto the email now

 

 

Hi Whew I thought someone linked the wrong video?? Guess it went overmyhead.. LOL!!

 

Anyhow my Setup consists of 3 Acer X1261P NVidia 3D Cetified projectors they are Not monitors.. Each segment is 45" diag.. it is real immersive and I am planning on going with a curved screen sometime in the future..

 

Guys I just asked for a quote for a custom size screen and it was really cheaper then I thought.. Shipping from where Tomas is located to New Jersey was a mere 270USD!!

 

Now while it is a pretty steep price no where as exaggerated as some posted here.. I seen someone post a grand ??

 

My Screen and shipping to my location came in at around 1,000USD not real bad for a niche market item..

 

Now before you say I must be rich or something I am just over borderline Poor but a single guy with No family so I have meager means and can support my addiction (flight Simulation) as I do NOT have to support any kids.. :)

 

Also I seen some curved screens as high as 5,000 USD and that is WITHOUT Shipping.. So Please ask for a quote an I'm sure you will be surprised at what Tomas offers it is really NOT as dramtically expensive as some have made it too be..

 

Trust me I looked high and low and besides DIY this is a real good deal.. Try getting a custom screen quote, you may be shocked to see how low the cost is..

[HuggyBear]

Zahry posted his own price estimates in posts #32 and #85.

 

Do you feel he was exaggerating?

 

Or did you opt for a different product/size?

 

Also consider the projectors which you had already purchased.

 

The definition of value will be different for everyone, as you have shown.

 

- Bear

[The_Nephilim]

Zahry posted his own price estimates in posts #32 and #85.

 

Do you feel he was exaggerating? No, but if you get a smaller piece the price will drop..

 

Or did you opt for a different product/size? I stated I got a custom size but still rather large 4'x10'

 

Also consider the projectors which you had already purchased. yes you can buy refurbished or used to help offset the cost

 

The definition of value will be different for everyone, as you have shown. I was just trying to put in an ACTUAL shipping cost not some overinflated drempt up prices some have thought up

 

- Bear

 

I still think it is spendy I can DIY for a lot cheaper and put the extra money into Converting my HomeTheater into a 3D one.. I was just trying to show Shipping is NOT as bad as some here think it will be..

[HuggyBear]

I was trying to tell you that no one inflated or exaggerated the prices.

 

The 270° setup most commonly referred to in this thread will cost around $5000.

 

You did not buy this setup, therefore your cost was different.

 

Read the posts.

 

- Bear

[The_Nephilim]

I was trying to tell you that no one inflated or exaggerated the prices.

 

The 270° setup most commonly referred to in this thread will cost around $5000.

 

You did not buy this setup, therefore your cost was different.

 

Read the posts.

 

- Bear

 

Why must everybody argue here.. I am neither trying to start and argument or will win a prize for being right.. What I am saying is that most here have been getting the SHIPPING Prices exaggerated..

 

Yes I did NOT buy from him but the Screen Tomas quoted me was ONE GRAND 4'Hx10'L near what he is already selling

Edited April 26, 2014 by The_Nephilim

[The_Nephilim]

I was trying to tell you that no one inflated or exaggerated the prices.

 

The 270° setup most commonly referred to in this thread will cost around $5000.

 

You did not buy this setup, therefore your cost was different.

 

Read the posts.

 

- Bear

 

 

Post 32

 

 

Hi Rage,

The plans for the frame are free – the frame material cost including projector holders will be around $20 - $100 depending on where you source the materials from and if you do it yourself.

 

Warping and blending is $215 (pc locked license for up to 6 projectors). I’ll try to make pre-calibrated files for the setups (work in progress)

 

BenQ W 1080ST costs from amazon $945 http://www.amazon.com/BenQ-W1080ST-1080p-Theater-Projector/dp/B00B11C6HW.

 

The screen/display material is from 4mm lexan coated with SimPit coatings. Following numbers are for radius 1.15m (if you increase radius you can fit more things in but you’ll lose some FoV)

 

1x projector - 1920x1080 for ~105º FoV, = 2.3m x 1.3m (104”) ……$ 750

2x projectors - 3840 x 1080 for ~180º FoV, = 3.6m x 1.3m .….$ 1,100

3x projectors - 5760x1080 for ~270º FoV = 5.4m x 1.3m …..$ 1,550

4x projectors - and 7680x1080 360º Fov = 7.2m x 1.3m ….$ 1,950

 

In example if you already have 2 projectors the upgrade will cost ~$1140 for 180º setup. If you’ll have to start from scratch all up will cost ~$3,225 – the setup is equivalent to 2K 150”. Similar TV is selling now for about $150 000,- (source http://news.yahoo.com/samsung-sells-110-inch-ultra-hd-tv-150-085617127--finance.html) :pilotfly:

 

 

seems to be a bit lower then your Quoted 5Grand.. Either way most people can get a cheaper Projector if they look around Amazon is spendy..

 

EDIT A Note the Caps is not me yelling for me it is an exaggeration.. But I will refraim from caps in the future..

Edited April 26, 2014 by The_Nephilim

[HuggyBear]

You complain about arguing... and then argue.

 

The price for the suggested BenQ projectors and 270° screen in my country and many others is just under $5000... without any shipping.

 

Those are the figures, without any exaggeration or bias.

 

Your figures are for something else.

 

- Bear

[The_Nephilim]

You complain about arguing... and then argue.

 

The price for the suggested BenQ projectors and 270° screen in my country and many others is just under $5000... without any shipping.

 

Those are the figures, without any exaggeration or bias.

 

Your figures are for something else.

 

- Bear

 

Ok I will say it one more time. I was just saying the Shipping for the Screen I quoted was not as expensive as some here thought.. I never said the Entire system would be cheap..

I was just trying to point out if one would want to buy the screen and source the Proj. elsewhere it would be a good idea..

 

This is probally why it is a niche market the cost..

Edited April 26, 2014 by The_Nephilim

[HuggyBear]

Wait, zahry himself estimated $1000 shipping for the semi-dome in post #85. Others discussed the system cost.

 

So you were accusing him of exaggerating his own shipping?

 

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever had. :)

 

I should have ignored you in the first place, better late than never.

 

- Bear

[zahry]

Hi guys, just to claryfy the things and sorry for the confusion my post made - the $1000 shipping is for the theoretical dome which would be quite expensive. Shipping fot the screens i actually make is around $270. The screen - if you compare it to other available products on market - is 1/5th of the price.

 

The projectors is variable in this equation - i think saying the setup will cost $5000 is really misleading because the final price really depends on what projectors you'll buy and how much you pay for it. Lots of people already have projectors so i can't imagine they would throw out their old projectors and went on to buy new ones if they can use the ones they've already got.

 

There is also the fact that if you want to build your 180 degree setup you don't have to buy everything at once. You can start with one projector on the wall which will get you going, then you can add the screen and then you can add the 2nd projector so you spread the $3K over time.

 

HuggyBear - if you'll do bit of shopping online you'll find the prices can be pretty close to what you can get on amazon and if not i can supply the BQs for $1080 with the screens.