FC3 F-15C Dogfight Series

[lunaticfringe]

Alright, VFA's been taking a lot of critiquing, so I only think it's fair to respond in kind. I find MiG-29s more dangerous right now, for the simple fact that all that the AI wants to do with Flankers is force an overshoot. No big thing.

 

Here's an example of keeping the bad guys (3 of them, all excellent) to one side at the merge. You'll note that this can be managed both in, and out, of the opponent's plane of maneuver.

 

Merge is at 1:00. MiG 2 turns out of phase with his partners, and the latter two's turn out of phase with the expected defense (had I simply broken into their lead) would have made it something almost looking like a one-circle fight. I break out of plane to dump speed, put everyone low, and all below corner for the MiG-29. From there, I pick targets of opportunity, maneuvering to push them as a group in one direction or the other. When I commit to kill #3, the others are looking the wrong way, and at least twenty seconds from being a factor. And knowing what relative direction they were headed in when we come out underneath, I know exactly where I have to look to pick them back up.

 

By 3:30, it's all over. 2:30 for three guns kills. Done better, but it's a lesson.

 

Don't get in-plane/phase until it's time to kill somebody. And use your blower. You're staying below 250 knots far too much. And the only time you want to be below 200 is at the top of a corner in a turn using the vertical. I get slow in due course in this example, but only because I'm looking at the ultimate hard-deck, and can get the heat back with blower in a matter of seconds unloaded at SL.

Tacview-20140430-232952.zip

[VFA143 Bones]

Here is my latest video applying some of the suggestions from you all. While I'm still not the best pilot, I feel that I have greatly improved after reading what you guys have posted and getting a better understanding of "how" to fight. I'm still a WIP though! :D

 

Anyway enjoy the video and many thanks for the helpful input ED members, keep the critiques coming! :thumbup:

 

[arkroyale048]

I applaud you for being a good sport ! :D

 

Definitely better than the last time....

 

 

BTW you mind sharing the .miz files ?

 

Feel like having a crack at it.

[GGTharos]

You lost the fight at 4:10 (among other things, but this one's extra blatant).

[VFA143 Bones]

I applaud you for being a good sport ! :D

 

Definitely better than the last time....

 

 

BTW you mind sharing the .miz files ?

 

Feel like having a crack at it.

 

Absolutely! I will zip them when I get home from work tonight.

[VFA143 Bones]

You lost the fight at 4:10 (among other things, but this one's extra blatant).

 

 

Indeed I did but like I said I am a "Work In Progress" :D I can only get better right! :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

Just bring it to your attention. I'm sure you'll figure out how to fix it :)

[arkroyale048]

Been spending some time dogfighting with the new AFM... First time I've engaged in one since the patch came out... I'd say dogfighting now is indeed a challenge. On a side note; I find it nice that I can now gracefully 'dance' with a flanker.Similar to this flanker vs flanker video back in the old FC2 (starts at around 5 minutes)

 

 

What gives with that roll opposite of where I'm turning ? It seems as if the plane wants to level itself out.

Edited May 1, 2014 by arkroyale048

[GGTharos]

No, you're just stalling a wing or experiencing some other similar effect. Possibly you're cross-controlling (pitch + roll/rudder) at high AoA.

 

The SFM planes, and the AI, ride like they are on rails by comparison, so I don't know about this 'dancing gracefuly with a flanker' thing because nothing about what the AI or SFM does is graceful as compared to the PFM.

 

And if you're getting wing rock, you're certainly not being graceful either ;)

 

Right now at high AoA/Slow speed the SFM planes have a huge nose-pointing advantage and insane rudder capability. Again, it's like they're on rails by comparison.

 

The F-15C PFM lacks the nose pointing authority it should have because of some rudder issues right now, but even when fixed it won't be like the SFM.

[VFA143 Bones]

Alright, VFA's been taking a lot of critiquing, so I only think it's fair to respond in kind. I find MiG-29s more dangerous right now, for the simple fact that all that the AI wants to do with Flankers is force an overshoot. No big thing.

 

Here's an example of keeping the bad guys (3 of them, all excellent) to one side at the merge. You'll note that this can be managed both in, and out, of the opponent's plane of maneuver.

 

Merge is at 1:00. MiG 2 turns out of phase with his partners, and the latter two's turn out of phase with the expected defense (had I simply broken into their lead) would have made it something almost looking like a one-circle fight. I break out of plane to dump speed, put everyone low, and all below corner for the MiG-29. From there, I pick targets of opportunity, maneuvering to push them as a group in one direction or the other. When I commit to kill #3, the others are looking the wrong way, and at least twenty seconds from being a factor. And knowing what relative direction they were headed in when we come out underneath, I know exactly where I have to look to pick them back up.

 

By 3:30, it's all over. 2:30 for three guns kills. Done better, but it's a lesson.

 

Don't get in-plane/phase until it's time to kill somebody. And use your blower. You're staying below 250 knots far too much. And the only time you want to be below 200 is at the top of a corner in a turn using the vertical. I get slow in due course in this example, but only because I'm looking at the ultimate hard-deck, and can get the heat back with blower in a matter of seconds unloaded at SL.

 

Nice job!

 

Here is my latest video in the series and it really shows what taking a few days off from flying can do to you! :D I decided to take on 3 x MiG29s and I get target fixated right off the bat on the guy on my nose. I completely lost track/didn't bother with the other two. :pilotfly: I will be trying this challenge again!

 

Edited May 7, 2014 by VFA143 Bones

[HiJack]

Have you remembered to set them all to attack you now? :music_whistling: Looks as a good challenge :thumbup:

[VFA143 Bones]

Have you remembered to set them all to attack you now? :music_whistling: Looks as a good challenge :thumbup:

 

 

Yes! I will say that the MiG29s are far more aggressive than the Su-27 in this current build of the Sim. They like to get in there and turn with you! :thumbup:

[Bushmanni]

You said in the video that air combat is a perishable skill but from performance psychology standpoint it just means that you don't know what you are doing. You did something that worked last time but because you really didn't understand why it worked or what you exactly did you can't replicate it after some time. Put more effort into analyzing your fights and reading some theory and you will improve faster and retain it over time.

 

Besides target fixation you entered one circle fight way overspeed and got quickly wasted as expected. Su-27 and Su-30 like to keep their speed up in a dogfight which makes them easy targets in a one circle fight if you simply pull hard and bleed your speed like every rookie does. Some other AI fighters like F-15 and Mig-29 like to turn with low speed so if you want to do a one circle fight with them you need to start your turn with equal or less speed than the bandit. A better option though would be to go for two circle fight and do a max sustained turn rate turn.

 

F-15 manual explains how to make sustained max performance turns in different conditions. Typically you want to keep your speed at 0.9M and pull just enough that the speed stays the same. You should be able to pull about 7g (for as long as you have fuel) at the altitude you had in the video.

 

Check the circle flow subtopic to understand what I'm talking about one and two circle fights. It's not a bad idea to read the rest of it too. Understanding some of it might need some experimenting and analyzing of those experiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

[leafer]

You lost the fight at 4:10 (among other things, but this one's extra blatant).

 

Ok, why? Should he have went for high speed yo-yo?

[GGTharos]

He should have noticed what he was going to be in an over-shoot situation and taken actions to deal with it. A yo-yo might be an answer, but there's more than one way to deal with it.

 

Ok, why? Should he have went for high speed yo-yo?

[leafer]

Yeah I thought he was going a bit fast. Thing is I could never tell the bandit's speed in relation to mine. The wings vortices help but the bandit would have to be turning.

[GGTharos]

Outside of the range where you can visually decide, your radar will tell you his speed.

 

Once in the dogfight, you can tell by watching how his aspect changes in relation to his apparent turn radius, in particular as compared to your own performance at that moment.

[VFA143 Bones]

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas I will keep trying to incorporate all that you guys have posted! I did pick up Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat" book and plan on hitting it pretty hard.

 

In the mean time here is the newest video where I repeat the 3 x MiG29S challenge. Not much to say about this one other then I shot two down and sent the third one wounded back to his base. Still need to work on a lot of stuff and learn more about the tactics/maneuvers. That's why I don't mind your criticisms as I am using them as a tool to better myself.

 

[HiJack]

Good job! :thumbup: Are those MiG's individual flights or are they lead with two wingmen (one group)?

[VFA143 Bones]

Good job! :thumbup: Are those MiG's individual flights or are they lead with two wingmen (one group)?

 

 

This was just a single group. Would the AI react differently if they were a 2-ship and a single or 3 singles?

[GGTharos]

Yes, the group will leave you alone except for the one that's engaging you.

[Bushmanni]

In your latest video you were constantly losing sight of the bandits and you weren't very effective scanning the sky to find them again. If you don't know where the enemy is you can't effectively maneuver your aircraft to better your position but end up running around the sky while the enemy is maneuvering into your your six. You should practice flying while looking at the bandit and only taking intermittent quick glances to HUD to check your speed and nose position. You will also sometimes inevitably lose sight of the bandit when he gets masked by our aircraft during maneuvers so you should learn to predict where he's going to reappear again.

[arraamis]

Aside from the excellent comments and recommendations posted by the following, Blaze, GGTharos & lunaticfringe -- @VFA143 Bones, I wonder if you ever considered setting up missions where you just track your enemies post-merge.

 

I'm not suggesting a tracking\pursuit to engage session, but tracking\pursuit sessions to learn how to better predict enemy movements while manipulating your radar. For example, miss the merge on purpose and track the enemy without firing on them.

I think the longest I've done this during a single session is about ten-fifteen minutes, but it definitely helps develop your skills.

 

Another suggestion which may assist in understanding AI behavior and some human behavior is to setup AI vs AI engagement missions (SU27 vs F15C) for example. And watch and study what breaks and behaviors are used at each experience level.

 

For example: After the your (F15C) AIM is released, the SU27@excellent likes to quickly apply brakes, dive into a half roll & split to change levels quickly, then go full thrust @your 12, then do a chandell half circle bouncing back to engage.

 

Side note: I've noticed that the AI is somewhat limited in how they respond to engagements , most times the pattern is to (quickly dive to a low altitude maneuvering routine, then climb to engage} rinse & repeat if unsuccessful.

 

Again this is the AI, and human opponents will react differently, but the practice does go a long way to helping you quickly recognize flight patterns used by opponents.

 

I hope you can find something useful in what I posted, for I am still a long way off from where I would like to be as well.

 

Regards & keep posting the vids ..... I'm liking them

[lunaticfringe]

2:25: bandit at 3, moving back to 4. Puff of smoke shows throttle change along the horizon, visible clear as day. Thirteen seconds later at 2:38, you've got a lock on the nose just off to your left, and instead of committing into a right hand lead turn (because he's turning right into you), and generating angles against that MiG crawing up your 6, you break left, giving that guy in back angular advantage.

 

Ergo, you handed position to *both* at the same time. You then progress through a low-G "please shoot me"-type turn, and get them both pointed at you- one on the nose, the other at your six as they box you in. And this turn progresses, and you turn through another bandit again at 3:30. Bad guy starts seriously saddling up, and you go into an aileron roll and look away from him, making all sorts of lazy arcs away from his threat for an extended period.

 

Honestly- after that point, I can't watch anymore. I'm yelling at the computer screen. I'm seeing these guys transition across your canopy, and it's everything I can do not to push my finger through the LCD pointing them out. And then it looks like you pick them up for a second, and then don't do anything constructive in response. The only reason you're not dead is because you're dealing with AI, and they're not carrying missiles in this exercise. To congratulate mere survival when we're looking for you to grow and excel isn't fair in the long term, and sets a poor standard.

 

To the earlier generalization made, losing sight of a bandit *is* acceptable if you *know* what he can do against you, cold, and know exactly where he went when you swapped visual responsibility, because this falls under SA. Your internal clock should be resetting, saying "I've got ten seconds", or "I've got twenty seconds until that guy becomes a factor, because his nose was 180 degrees away from me, and he was heading the other way".

 

I'm gonna be straight, Bones- step away from the 1v3 guns. Get back to basics. 1v1 until you never lose sight of the bandit by your own maneuvering, period, and put him in his grave within 60 seconds of the merge. Then you step up to the 1v2 until you can mentally hold position on both at the same time, no matter their relative aspect to you, and kill them both within two minutes of the pass. We'll know you know where they are by watching the .ACMI; it's clear as day. *Then*, when you can do that effectively, add the third. Mix up the routine by adding IR weapons into the mix- R-60s to start, R-73s when you want to learn how to control separation to stay inside of Rmin while not getting your brain gunned out.

 

When you get a guy in your HUD, and you're actually seeing him, you finish in a reasonable amount of time. The problem is that you're not getting them in your HUD. Every movement of the stick and throttle has to mean something with regards to gaining you position, or reestablishing your energy state. Turns for thirty and forty seconds significantly below corner (<300 knots) without visual on the threat is the ACM equivalent of a hooker on the Vegas Strip holding up a sign saying "$5 Special - All Week". Every Red Air loser with a shady look in his eye in the airspace is going to point at you with ill intent, and you're going to wind up with more stab wounds than Lizzie Borden's father.

 

The ultimate fact is that you've got to get back to basics, and understand them, before you're going to get a hold on what is happening in these multi-bandit engagements. Until then, all the coaching in the world isn't going to do any good, because your acumen isn't at a point yet where you can disern what is happening, even in the postscript. I'd like to see you succeed, but it only comes in steps. So return to GO, collect $200, and roll the dice like it's a whole new game.

[VFA143 Bones]

2:25: bandit at 3, moving back to 4. Puff of smoke shows throttle change along the horizon, visible clear as day. Thirteen seconds later at 2:38, you've got a lock on the nose just off to your left, and instead of committing into a right hand lead turn (because he's turning right into you), and generating angles against that MiG crawing up your 6, you break left, giving that guy in back angular advantage.

 

Ergo, you handed position to *both* at the same time. You then progress through a low-G "please shoot me"-type turn, and get them both pointed at you- one on the nose, the other at your six as they box you in. And this turn progresses, and you turn through another bandit again at 3:30. Bad guy starts seriously saddling up, and you go into an aileron roll and look away from him, making all sorts of lazy arcs away from his threat for an extended period.

 

Honestly- after that point, I can't watch anymore. I'm yelling at the computer screen. I'm seeing these guys transition across your canopy, and it's everything I can do not to push my finger through the LCD pointing them out. And then it looks like you pick them up for a second, and then don't do anything constructive in response. The only reason you're not dead is because you're dealing with AI, and they're not carrying missiles in this exercise. To congratulate mere survival when we're looking for you to grow and excel isn't fair in the long term, and sets a poor standard.

 

To the earlier generalization made, losing sight of a bandit *is* acceptable if you *know* what he can do against you, cold, and know exactly where he went when you swapped visual responsibility, because this falls under SA. Your internal clock should be resetting, saying "I've got ten seconds", or "I've got twenty seconds until that guy becomes a factor, because his nose was 180 degrees away from me, and he was heading the other way".

 

I'm gonna be straight, Bones- step away from the 1v3 guns. Get back to basics. 1v1 until you never lose sight of the bandit by your own maneuvering, period, and put him in his grave within 60 seconds of the merge. Then you step up to the 1v2 until you can mentally hold position on both at the same time, no matter their relative aspect to you, and kill them both within two minutes of the pass. We'll know you know where they are by watching the .ACMI; it's clear as day. *Then*, when you can do that effectively, add the third. Mix up the routine by adding IR weapons into the mix- R-60s to start, R-73s when you want to learn how to control separation to stay inside of Rmin while not getting your brain gunned out.

 

When you get a guy in your HUD, and you're actually seeing him, you finish in a reasonable amount of time. The problem is that you're not getting them in your HUD. Every movement of the stick and throttle has to mean something with regards to gaining you position, or reestablishing your energy state. Turns for thirty and forty seconds significantly below corner (<300 knots) without visual on the threat is the ACM equivalent of a hooker on the Vegas Strip holding up a sign saying "$5 Special - All Week". Every Red Air loser with a shady look in his eye in the airspace is going to point at you with ill intent, and you're going to wind up with more stab wounds than Lizzie Borden's father.

 

The ultimate fact is that you've got to get back to basics, and understand them, before you're going to get a hold on what is happening in these multi-bandit engagements. Until then, all the coaching in the world isn't going to do any good, because your acumen isn't at a point yet where you can disern what is happening, even in the postscript. I'd like to see you succeed, but it only comes in steps. So return to GO, collect $200, and roll the dice like it's a whole new game.

 

Thank you for your bluntness! :thumbup: And you are correct I need to go back to "basics", I picked up Robert Shaw's amazing book "Fighter Combat" and have been voraciously reading it all weekend. The next video I am going to put up will be in respect to the 3 different "pursuit curves' (Lead, Pure, and Lag) against a single opponent. I am thinking against a MiG23 as it may be easier to start BFM learning/practice against one of these versus a MiG29.

 

Thoughts?