Why Vikhr ?

[Sundowner.pl]

I’m not Russian equipment expert, my friend Kusch here is better in that matter, so I have a question: Why we use AT-16 Vikhr in this sim ?

 

The cause why I’m asking this question is quite simple, I just bought “Nowa Technika Wojskowa” magazine, and I found info about practice firings of Ka-52 – the December 2005 one of firing AT-9 Ataka missiles… nothing out of ordinary so far, but later in this text I found this quote:

 

“…earlier Ka-52, same as its predecessor Ka-50 was armed with Vikhr, laser beam riding missile. Vikhr was rejected by Russian armed forces and its production was terminated. Kamow had to adapt Ka-52 to carry atgm Ataka, the most popular anti-tank missile in Russia.”

 

Now it strucked me, why are we using the wrong missile ? Why not the one that Russians are really using – the AT-9 Ataka radio-command guided missile?

[Alfa]

I’m not Russian equipment expert, my friend Kusch here is better in that matter, so I have a question: Why we use AT-16 Vikhr in this sim ?

 

The cause why I’m asking this question is quite simple, I just bought “Nowa Technika Wojskowa” magazine, and I found info about practice firings of Ka-52 – the December 2005 one of firing AT-9 Ataka missiles… nothing out of ordinary so far, but later in this text I found this quote:

 

“…earlier Ka-52, same as its predecessor Ka-50 was armed with Vikhr, laser beam riding missile. Vikhr was rejected by Russian armed forces and its production was terminated. Kamow had to adapt Ka-52 to carry atgm Ataka, the most popular anti-tank missile in Russia.”

 

Now it strucked me, why are we using the wrong missile ? Why not the one that Russians are really using – the AT-9 Ataka radio-command guided missile?

 

Because...

 

a) the Vikhr is the missile used by the Ka-50

 

b) the Ka-50 does not have a radar - i.e. no way of controlling a radio-command weapon ;)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Sundowner.pl]

b) the Ka-50 does not have a radar - i.e. no way of controlling a radio-command weapon ;)

The Mi-24V/P and Mi-28 also doesn’t have radar (the Mi-28N can have it) and still AT-9 is their primary anti-tank weapon.

 

For radio-command control missiles radar is not needed, the data-link antenna is.

[VapoR]

The core problem is that ED's flyable choices lately are weird. Two aircraft BARELY in service--Su-25T and Ka-50. Not to mention the completely screwed up timeframe of the sim.

[Alfa]

The Mi-24V/P and Mi-28 also doesn’t have radar (the Mi-28N can have it) and still AT-9 is their primary anti-tank weapon.

 

For radio-command control missiles radar is not needed, the data-link antenna is.

 

I did not comment on the technical possibility of using radio-command weapons without a radar, but rather the fact that the Shkval system onboard the Ka-50 was designed around the Prichal laser designator/Vikhr missile combination and has no device for controlling radio-command missiles.....and that the Ka-50 has no radar that can be used for direct control of them either.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

The core problem is that ED's flyable choices lately are weird. Two aircraft BARELY in service--Su-25T and Ka-50. Not to mention the completely screwed up timeframe of the sim.

 

What "screwed up timeframe"?

 

- JJ.

[D-Scythe]

What timeframe? ;)

 

In a galaxy far far away remember?

[Sundowner.pl]

Well I'm few books older now... so it seems that Shkwal could work with AT-9 but was never adopted to that role, mainly because the only operating airframes are in few models and there are no plans to buy more of them. The Vikhr production was cancelled shortly so to eny mission makers - remember to not put to many Su-25T and Ka-50 in one mission with those missiles if you want to make realistic one :D

[GGTharos]

Um, we'll put as many as we want if eople want to fly'em?

[nscode]

if you want to make realistic one :D

 

;)

[Avimimus]

The "AT-9" is the Ataka missile complex a derivative of the "AT-6" Shturm missile system. The missiles are respectively the 9M220/120M family and the 9M114/9A2200/9M114F.

 

It is not related to the system carried on the Su-25T and Ka-50/52 family of helicopters. Known as the 9A1472.

 

The first is radio-command guided, the second long range laser-beam riding.

Both are cheap and effective systems.

 

Niether is anything like the AGM-114 (contrary to western obsession).

The west is so confused (I have heared them called unguided rockets in books) that so far as anyone is concerned the designations AT-12, AT-x-12 and AT-16 should be burried and never mentioned as air launched again.

 

The Vikhr/9A1472 is possibly vulnerable to bad weather (by it's very nature). It is also limited to visual distances. The 9M114/9M120 will always loose accuracy at extreme range (as will any other launcher guided missile).

 

Both systems and styles have decades of development potential and will/are in service as we speak.

[Groove]

Nowa Technika Wojskowa - is this still avaible in poland ?

[Sundowner.pl]

Nowa Technika Wojskowa - is this still avaible in poland ?

Yes it is, and its getting better every month :)

Both systems and styles have decades of development potential and will/are in service as we speak.

The only problem is, both systems are SACLOS missiles, there is no possibility for those missiles to be launched in Lock On After Launch (LOAL) mode, nor to be guided by other source (like Hellfire) and no way they will become Fire-and-Forget types (like Longbow Hellfire or TOW-2B). Both Ataka and Vikhr are indeed in service, but production of Vikhr was terminated some time ago and there are no upgrade programs running for it.

[Dudikoff]

and no way they will become Fire-and-Forget types (like Longbow Hellfire or TOW-2B). Both Ataka and Vikhr are indeed in service, but production of Vikhr was terminated some time ago and there are no upgrade programs running for it.

 

TOW-2B fire-and-forget?? I think you read something wrong. It has a regular TOW guidance except it's top-attack profile.

 

Vikhr can't ever be used with LOAL because of its specific guidance in which it flies around the laser beam, but I don't see why AT-9 couldn't become a fire-and-forget missile. What did regular Hellfire have that made it possible for it to become a fire-and-forget missile? It's not that big a deal. You just replace it's guidance section and *surprise, surprise* - it's a fire-and-forget missile. The development of the radar system and that guidance section is another matter.

[nscode]

What did regular Hellfire have that made it possible for it to become a fire-and-forget missile?

 

A great big fat budget :D

[Force_Feedback]

The development of a new guidance section is more likely than that of a completely new missile, unless some export customer shows serious interest in the Vikhr, its days are doomed. The original ataka helicopter-missile (not the tank version) has a range of like 8km, versus the 10 of the Vikhr, and the Vikhr is faster too, but I guess the Ataka system was upgraded accordingly.

It's soo confusing, as multiple versions of both systems exists, differing, besides guidance methods, in range and launch platforms.

We need a "Russian spiralling ATGM guide"

[Sundowner.pl]

TOW-2B fire-and-forget?? I think you read something wrong. It has a regular TOW guidance except it's top-attack profile.

The Raytheon did its Fire and Forget version mounting IIR seeker in front of the missile, but program was cancelled in 2002, that missile is also known as TOW-2B FF or simply TOW-FF.

 

 

but I don't see why AT-9 couldn't become a fire-and-forget missile.

Ataka is a bit small you will need far better electronics tehnology to fit radar/IIR and good guidance computer in it without sacrificing range and warhead.

 

What did regular Hellfire have that made it possible for it to become a fire-and-forget missile?

A good buyer.

[britgliderpilot]

What did regular Hellfire have that made it possible for it to become a fire-and-forget missile?

A great big fat budget :D

 

 

Hit the nail right on the head!

[Dudikoff]

The Raytheon did its Fire and Forget version mounting IIR seeker in front of the missile, but program was cancelled in 2002, that missile is also known as TOW-2B FF or simply TOW-FF.

 

Ok, I was not aware of that, but you wrote TOW-2B, not me.

 

Ataka is a bit small you will need far better electronics tehnology to fit radar/IIR and good guidance computer in it without sacrificing range and warhead.

 

As I wrote, the development of such seeker and radar system is another matter. But, Longbow Hellfire has been in development for some time now and with the technology improving all the time, I have no doubt that even it's seeker could be made more compact to fit the AT-9 missile (hipothetically speaking).

 

A good buyer.

 

Point taken, but, again, has nothing to do with the missile itself.

[GGTharos]

You said 'it's not that big a deal'.

 

Well, yes ... it is.The evidence is in helicopter armament.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Few days ago I bought the "Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot: Close Air Support Aircraft". It is still on its way from amazon, I should get it on Monday. Can't wait to put my hands on it.

 

Interestingly enough, Amazon di dnot have any books about KA-50 or KA-52?

[tflash]

Why we use AT-16 Vikhr in this sim ?

 

For fun, of course! BTW my wife wants me to fix the garden instead :=)

 

Strange thing is most Marines prefer the TOW over the Hellfire: a line-of-sight weapon has some advantages in fierce combat over a fire-and-forget one. Keeping your eye on the foe is one good reason.

 

The formidable thing about the Vikhr/Shkval/Prichal combo is the sheer range of engagement: locking optically at more than 10nm is really something that is only matched by the very state-of-the-art systems like the Stryx on the Tiger chopper.

 

Vikhr shouldn't be questioned, but Su-25T is. To me this is not a "best buy" at all: way to heavy and unmanoevrable.

 

I think the "real" realistic thing is the stunning vanilla Su-25, with clusters and rockets. It does CAS the old-fashioned, politically incorrect way, but it is one of the very best at it. And it flies lovely!

[GGTharos]

tflash, TOW is preffered against targets where a) top-attack is not so useful

b) there are alsing issues. Otherwise it's hellfire ... and it's not the FF version, either.