F15 Tactics

[Altimaden]

if only mankind were telepathic and language irrelevant

 

i've got a question, i have a hard time re-acquiring targets that have closed inside 20nm, would it be better to use TWS to search for the target for its higher scan speed? or RWS for that extra azimuth?

[Bushmanni]

If you know pretty much exactly which direction he is, then go for narrow scan but otherwise go for wide. Scan pattern is only 10 degrees high in elevation so at close range it's coverage is small. You need to move it vertically in order to find the target. Wide scan takes 4 seconds to complete and narrow 2 seconds. Change the elevation after every 5 (or 3) seconds until you find what you are looking for. Keep the radar scale at 20 or 40 and TDC far out enough that the altitude numbers don't overlap so you can move the vertical setting accurately.

[DarkMellie]

Pilgramige, get some thicker skin, his response was fine and you've taken it the wrong way. This thread started out brilliantly useful and quickly boiled down to nothing.

 

So I have a question.

 

I've been using the Flanker Squadron video to get started with the F15's radar and I finally understand what it is I'm looking at and how I can use it to determine the exact altitude and direction of targets that are BVR. However, someone above talked about pulsing which is really interesting, as is how TWS doesn't alert the other pilot on their RWR.

 

Could someone perhaps dot-point their radar activity after take off? Like, "use RWS at this range and change altitude this frequently and then switch it off for this long..." and so on?

 

 

Also, where does the ECM come into things?

 

Thanks :)

[TAW_Blaze]

Pilgramige

 

You just utterly butchered his name. :D

 

Keep in mind while the chances are slim of being hit, someone can lock onto a ecm sorce and fire. If you're say at a medium alt and not making direction changes someone at a much higher alt could loft a missle and it could hit you and you would never know.

 

No because of guidance missmodeling. From what I've seen you have to keep STT on his ECM until the AMRAAM is in active range, and then it goes active. You won't see anything other than the guy STT locking you until the point of pitbull. Then you get the warning etc.

 

Now the fact that you have to keep STT on him up to a point where the missile's seeker could see him is a reasonable realization of the guidance. The bandit receiveing STT warning from a passive guidance is absolutely ludicrous. So is the ARH going active and letting off a separate missile warning in HOJ mode.

 

I remember someone saying this albeit I forgot his name here, but I'll quote: "if you get HOJ killed you're a flying potato".

[Frostie]

You just utterly butchered his name. :D

 

 

 

No because of guidance missmodeling. From what I've seen you have to keep STT on his ECM until the AMRAAM is in active range, and then it goes active. You won't see anything other than the guy STT locking you until the point of pitbull. Then you get the warning etc.

 

Now the fact that you have to keep STT on him up to a point where the missile's seeker could see him is a reasonable realization of the guidance. The bandit receiveing STT warning from a passive guidance is absolutely ludicrous. So is the ARH going active and letting off a separate missile warning in HOJ mode.

 

I remember someone saying this albeit I forgot his name here, but I'll quote: "if you get HOJ killed you're a flying potato".

Missiles find the target in HOJ without the aircrafts radar they just home on pure pursuit to the source passively. When the missiles seeker burns though the jammer that is when the seeker tries to compute an intercept and a warning is given, makes sense this way as flying pure pursuit to impact is a terrible Pk.

[TAW_Blaze]

Missiles find the target in HOJ without the aircrafts radar they just home on pure pursuit to the source passively. When the missiles seeker burns though the jammer that is when the seeker tries to compute an intercept and a warning is given, makes sense this way as flying pure pursuit to impact is a terrible Pk.

 

Aha. But what's the use of this? If the target has no clue he's shot at pure pursuit would be good enough to hit him wouldn't it? Instead we give him a warning so he can react? This doesn't seem very logical to me. Don't get me wrong pure pursuit is a terrible guidance method in case of a maneuvering target. But why do we need better guidance if the target is very likely to not maneuver?

 

I guess if the ECM is strong enough then the missile will be able to see him from the start.

 

But this is not how it works in game. As far as DCS goes, I tried this a few times and although I didn't document the results it very much felt like the AMRAAM would only guide HOJ if you kept lock on the jammer.

 

Blaze, I just reread what you posted. When you mention STT on a HOJ source. When ever I lock up an ECM signal, all I get is HOJ.. Does that focus all the radar emmision upon the general direction of the ECM or does the radar just keep doing its normal scan?

 

I think it works like STT except that your radar isn't emitting. You're not scanning anything for sure.

[TAW_Blaze]

Humm, Well isn't that a completly retarded way to do things.. Allthough I guess it would then make you a silent passive killer..

 

The point isn't just being silent but it's a strong benefit. The other point is being able to kill targets that you can't directly identify or lock.

 

Anyone want to do some testing on this to verify if in deed when locked in HOJ it no longer emits radar.

 

You get STT warning when being HOJ locked I think that says everything you need to know about it.

 

Still even so HOJ is well a 1:1,000,000 kill..

 

No. A good HOJ shot is a certain kill. But in DCS we have very little from the stuff that would make HOJ shots letal. I'll just name a few for fun:

 

a) no real AWACS support

b) no datalink

c) broken missile guidance

d) broken missile kinematics

e) broken radar mechanics

 

I'm sure I could name a few more but that's about enough.

[TAW_Blaze]

Ok, let me back up some. You said that when you lock in HOJ, the radar stops emitting therefor how would someones rwr show a lock since the lock que is based on seeing a constant beam of radar emission when it shows a lock.

 

HOJ is passive guidance, the radar will act as a receiver to the jammer's signals there's absolutely no need for you to emit anything. It's like IRST just with radio waves. In IRL I mean. In the game it doesn't seem to be true, otherwise why the hell would you get STT warning in HOJ mode.

 

as far as an HOJ being lethal. I'd say no. Since HOJ cannot give distance nor altitude to the target it makes it a hope and pray deployment. You can give your self better odds if flying significantly higher and flying fast to as give the missile more PK.

 

You still don't understand. There are means to locate and identify targets further than your little bird's radar can see.

 

To be fair though this whole HOJ discussion is bullshit, the thing we have in game labeled as ECM has absolutely nothing to do with any form of real ECM application.

Edited September 20, 2014 by <Blaze>

[TAW_Blaze]

No. In DCS if you get HOJ locked you get STT warning. If he fires a SARH on you, you get no warning at all for the launch. If he fires an ARH, you get a missile warning when it goes active.

 

Yes well, if you're talking about in game locating and identifying targets beyond your radar scope "in the f15 with out awacs" then please do tell as I have yet to be able to do this.

 

Datalink

Wingmen

AWACS

 

In that specific order, we don't really have any of them.

[Frostie]

No. In DCS if you get HOJ locked you get STT warning. If he fires a SARH on you, you get no warning at all for the launch. If he fires an ARH, you get a missile warning when it goes active.

 

 

 

 

 

In game.

• The target just receives an STT lock tone when you lock his strobe.
  
• He still only receives an STT lock when you fire any radar guided missile.
  
• When you drop lock on the jammer the missile will fly pure pursuit to the ECM source.
  
• When it reaches burn through an ARH will go autonomous, a SARH will continue pure unless reacquired by the shooters radar in which case it will act as a non HOJ, in both situations a launch warning is given to the target at burn through.
  

Locking and firing on strobes, turning cold then turning back in to reacquire them at burn through seconds before impact is one of the most satisfying kills online with SARH missiles.

[TAW_Blaze]

When you drop lock on the jammer the missile will fly pure pursuit to the ECM source.

 

I'm not sure if that's the case with ARH.

[blkspade]

The in game behavior with ECM is quite inconsistent. I've gotten HOJ launch warnings from aircraft that are quite noticeably too far away on the RWR.

[Tricky11]

think i need one on one tuition lol

[wingshigh.g]

Totally agree. Followed your tactic and got a couple scores; then got a bit greedy trying to get two more then got shot down by a group of fighter working as team...

[TAW_Blaze]

Learn how to survive first. Once you know how to survive you can start learning how to kill.

[AegisFX]

Some advice I got when I picked up fc3 about a year ago, was always consider yourself as defending your territory. Don't press too far ahead, pick your anchor/landmark, and just sort of loiter. An enemy starts getting close and you start tracking, maneuvering, and firing to drive that unit from your space. He extends for 30. Chase for 10 and hold again.

 

This puts you in a defensive position, and works best, I think, if you are flying escort or watching friendly strikers over their objectives. But I think if you can hold an area near a waypt, repel a unit, push afteer

[Buckeye]

Learn how to survive first. Once you know how to survive you can start learning how to kill.

 

 

This is great advice. It's very easy to get kills, it's much more challenging to learn to defeat missiles (at least while staying in the fight without just flat out turning defensive and extending). The better you are at defending, the better you will be able to get yourself into a favorable firing position.

[TaccoZ__Amigo1__]

My 2 cents:

I only fly the fighters in MP mostly on 104th so my experience is only PvP

 

With that said one important point in Air to Air combat is knowing your enemy (Flankers, hopefully you already know eagles :D), you have to know what IRST/EOS is and what its capable of and you have to know the enemys missles and what their capable of. More important you should be able to judge the enemys skill level and at least have some hours in your adversaries plane so you know it.