Any thoughts on this FM behaviour?

[Charly_Owl]

 

 

I don't know what to think... is that realistic? Any FM experts thoughts?

Edited October 27, 2014 by Charly_Owl

[gavagai]

Oh man, it begins! I tried to do the same and failed with the Fw 190D-9, but I had the flaps up. Maybe I can pull it off with takeoff flaps... But I also had 100% fuel, and Viks has less than that. The loaded mass of a Fw 190D-9 should be over 4200kg.

 

P.S.

The Fw-190D-9 mass he uses is comparable to 10% fuel. The TF-51D mass he uses is not even possible in the P-51D.

Edited October 27, 2014 by gavagai

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I just flew the P51d, at 3339 Kg ( around 10% fuel ).

 

Took off from Batumi, series of 3 tonneaus right after leaving the rw, and gaining minimal height, and then direct entry into loopings - a series of 6, but I could have continued :-)

 

All in SIM mode, gear down, flaps at first detent, canpy closed :-)

 

I don't know if it could be done IRL because when I ended the tonneaus I was already at around 250km/h ?

 

I believe this post originated on a similar one at the IL2 BOS forums, where a Bf109 F4 at light weight performed teh same maneuvers, and then an He-111 ( with gear initially retracted right after takeoff ).

 

I also tried the same in FSX using A2A's Civil P51d - couldn't do it because the gear must exert a much bigger drag effetc than in either DCS or IL2, I couldn't gain enough speed and when I entered the loops I was always at excessive AoA, so, the prop effects were just too big...

Edited October 28, 2014 by jcomm
Typos and doubts about it being possible IRL...

[bongodriver]

what is a tonneau? I only know them as soft covers for the backs of pick up trucks.

[Kwiatek]

Question of entry speed and power to weight ratio. You probably used WEP also.

 

With such low fuel load, full power and minimum required speed it should be possible to do.

 

Regarding He-111 in BOS i can't belive it could be possible to do immidietly after take off. Maby with planty of entry speed it could be done but only barell roll in He-111 ( start with pitch up moment) dont think so it could be possible to do roll in level flight with He-111.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

what is a tonneau? I only know them as soft covers for the backs of pick up trucks.

 

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tonneau_acrobatico.svg

[Charly_Owl]

Question of entry speed and power to weight ratio. You probably used WEP also.

 

With such low fuel load, full power and minimum required speed it should be possible to do.

 

Regarding He-111 in BOS i can't belive it could be possible to do immidietly after take off. Maby with planty of entry speed it could be done but only barell roll in He-111 ( start with pitch up moment) dont think so it could be possible to do roll in level flight with He-111.

 

It depends. Knowing that the He-111 has a capacity of taking off with 3500 litres of fuel and more than 3500 kg worth of bombs... you have plenty of power; taking off empty and short with a 5 % fuel load doesn't seem "impossible"... Improbable, sure.

 

But why are you even bringing up the BoS He-111 into this? This is a DCS forum...

[bongodriver]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tonneau_acrobatico.svg

 

Ah, a barrel roll.

[Kwiatek]

It depends. Knowing that the He-111 has a capacity of taking off with 3500 litres of fuel and more than 3500 kg worth of bombs... you have plenty of power; taking off empty and short with a 5 % fuel load doesn't seem "impossible"... Improbable, sure.

 

But why are you even bringing up the BoS He-111 into this? This is a DCS forum...

 

 

 

Not sure why, doesn't metter speaking about just possibilty different planes to do such things like in videos.

 

but even with near empty load He-111 would have about 0.25-0.30 HP/KG (hard to calculate better without hard data) - not such high so.

 

Also big long wings, low entry speed - impossible to make straight roll after take off. I think quite impossible even at high speed to make straight level flight roll in such plane. Barell roll probably yes but not straight.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

what i find interesting is, that in viks video of the 190 you can see his cowl flaps beeing open...in my dcs the cowl flaps are not animated and ive never seen them open yet tbh.

btw, funny videos he put up there.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Honestly, I didn't think it could be possible when I first watched the videos, and the reason is that in DCS, for instance, I started my loopings from level, at *only* 250km/h after completing the tonneaus.

 

I tended to agree more with the results I got in A2A's Civil P51d, but not because of the gear drag!!!, although being DCS's FDM that I still and always have as a reference, I really am forced to accept it is possible...

Edited October 28, 2014 by jcomm
Making more clear what I really meant.... Language sometimes is a barrier, and English is not my native language!

[jaydee]

 

 

I don't know what to think... is that realistic? Any FM experts thoughts?

I just don't understand this post ! Are you askin a question ? Are you tryin to prove a point ? Do you really want to hear "Thoughts" ?

Why go to so much Effort to Record/post this ?

Maybe its just me , I don't get the point of this post.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I just don't understand this post ! Are you asking a question ? Are you tryin to prove a point ? Do you really want to hear "Thoughts" ?

Why go to so much Effort to Record/post this ?

Maybe its just me , I don't get the point of this post.

 

It was probably a rhetorical question, maybe because the author thuoght ( just as I did ) this should really not be possible IRL, but I believe it is more because of the same reasons I would have posted it as well...

 

The origin I believe was a post at another forum, which I also have read and made me think about...

 

The original video was for a Bf109F4 in another combat flight simulation platform I also use(d), and it gave rise to a lot of negative commentaries. There are two ways of looking at it, and I think the OP, just as I myself, being fans of DCS, not having the chance to try such maneuvers IRL, not being aeronautical engineers, decided to try a similar maneuver in DCS. Later another user offered a video with an He-111 performing tonneaus and also a looping.

 

I can no longer test with the Dora, but I could with the p51d and the Tf51. DCS is a reference to me, so, even if it may look stupid / pointless to many of you, I use DCS most of the time to test / taste the flight dynamics modeling of what I consider a reference in terms of flight dynamics among the available sims ( civil or combat ).

 

It was great to see, on those two videos, that it was also piece-of-cake to do in DCS World. I myself spent a few time last night testing this and other maneuvers :-)

 

And, BTW, for the seasoned pilots around here, and maybe a Dev like Yo-Yo... what do you think? Should it be possible IRL too? I am somehow convinced it could, at such low takeoff weight, but... I'm not sure...

Edited October 28, 2014 by jcomm
Typos

[Yo-Yo]

 

I also tried the same in FSX using A2A's Civil P51d - couldn't do it because the gear must exert a much bigger drag effetc than in either DCS or IL2, I couldn't gain enough speed and when I entered the loops I was always at excessive AoA, so, the prop effects were just too big...

 

I am trying to stay chill... but all these "must" , 'too big" begin to be annoying... we use ACCURATE data for this drag - sometimes from WT tests, sometimes from indirect tests, like MP for the P-51 at full flaps and gear down configuration at certain sink rate or in level flight for the certain mass, etc.

 

And please, do not compare DCS to another sims as reference - if you drive me angry I will begin to show sooo great flaws in these models, though it is not very polite.

[Solty]

We will need a lot of popcorn for this one;P I have seen at least one video where pilot did a snap right after takeoff. So low fuel maneuvering like that is not a suprise. Although the plane was not a warbird

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I am trying to stay chill... but all these "must" , 'too big" begin to be annoying... we use ACCURATE data for this drag - sometimes from WT tests, sometimes from indirect tests, like MP for the P-51 at full flaps and gear down configuration at certain sink rate or in level flight for the certain mass, etc.

 

And please, do not compare DCS to another sims as reference - if you drive me angry I will begin to show sooo great flaws in these models, though it is not very polite.

 

Yo-Yo, I believe my initial post about the A2A p51d was not very well written (and I just edited it), as you could have easily noticed by reading another one I posted today :-)

 

I am not even trying to compare, nor am I trying to say the "others" are correct. As a matter of fact, I have DCS as a reference in terms of flight dynamics for a pc-based flight simulator, and that's why, after having tried many other commercial platforms ( all you can name, less RTS-Pro ), among civil and sometimes Combat flightsims ( although I do not like air combat ), it is DCS and Aerowinx PSX that remain in my disk :-) (fsx and x-plane being used for "out-of-windshield" views for PSX, and for silly tests from time to time :-) )

 

So, just like the OP, I rushed home to test the same maneuver in DCS's P51d, and really got convinced why it should really be possible IRL. Meanwhile those two videos by another DCS user became available too.

 

The gear drag in FSX's A2A p51d, and many other aspects are so limited by MSFS's flight dynamics model that I can't even take that as an approach to a reference for other sims... we're talking different worlds !!! But in this particular case, I honestly thought it wouldn't be possible to start, from level flight, at 250 km/h, although indeed the aircraft being so light ( 3339 Kg ) can probably explain it.

Edited October 28, 2014 by jcomm
To reformulate the way I refer to the previous post....

[ZaltysZ]

We will need a lot of popcorn for this one;P

 

Save it for time when Spit ad BF will come out. MP crowd will surely find lots of flaws which prevent them getting victories. :pilotfly:

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Save it for time when Spit ad BF will come out. MP crowd will surely find lots of flaws which prevent them getting victories. :pilotfly:

 

That's why I never liked playing any combat flight games :-/

 

Also, I really prefer to enter an MP aerobatics or air race session, and those are available for DCS, although I confess I have tried several times during the last month, to participate in Online sessions at DoW... It's a pain to start by simply identifying the other aircraft, friend or foe, although my new ASUS LED monitor helps a bit more..., and most of the time I get shot down and I don't even guess where the guy came from ( beleive that was the way, most of the time, in WW2... ).

[gavagai]

Save it for time when Spit ad BF will come out. MP crowd will surely find lots of flaws which prevent them getting victories. :pilotfly:

 

"The Mk 108 is too weak!"

"We need 25lbs boost!"

"The wings couldn't have been that fragile!"

"There's no way it could have held so much energy through a high-g turn!"

"This plane is impossible to takeoff/land. I wasted my money!"

:argue:

[Solty]

"The Mk 108 is too weak!"

"We need 25lbs forgettgs couldn't have been that fragile!"

"There's no way it could have held so much energy through a high-g turn!"

"This plane is impossible to takeoff/land. I wasted my money!"

:argue:

 

Omg. So true guys;) I'll save that popcorn then.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^:)

 

you forgot:

"the ballistics are ridiculous"

"in the other sim i can..."

"the damage model is off"

"we need higher octane"

...

[ZaltysZ]

^^:)

 

you forgot:

"the ballistics are ridiculous"

"in the other sim i can..."

"the damage model is off"

"we need higher octane"

...

 

and "I saw once on History Channel..."

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^good one :)

[Solty]

Well... The DM needs some work though. But I think that Sithspawn has confirmed that ED acknowlages that.

[Yo-Yo]

Dm really must be reworked!