Seems Really Hard to Control the F-15

[apoll]

Ok...I've been practicing like crazy with the F-15. Just trying to do a smooth turn at altitude is difficult; the hardest thing to control seemingly is the AoA. Even on a moderate turn, it seems to climb up and start shaking the plane, with the usual result that it 'departs', leaving me wallowing and flopping around the sky. I am try to ms,e a right turn to get behind a Mig-23... I find I am fighting the plane as much as the enemy. Why is that? Is the FM still too twitchy? What I am trying to force consistently is turn without it stalling or flopping on a depart. The speed is between 500 and 350...I try to limit the AoA by U.K. g only small pulls on the joystick, but no good. If I don't pull enough, i can't turn tightly enough yo get behind the enemy...even a Mif-23. But if I pull too hard to tighten the tighten the turn, even a reasonably tight turn, the AoA jumps and it shakes and stalls. What am I doing wrong? Or is it the too twitchy flight model? Or do I suck at controlling the plane?

 

Grateful views...

 

Apoll:huh:

[falcon_120]

I also find it too hard to control up high. Being at 30k M0.9-1.2 when I try to do a shallow turn to crank the enemy on my radar to increase my F-pole I usually end up in a stall that makes me lose 2 seconds to recover. I would like to know if it should behave like this.

 

I use linear curve and a ch fighterstick and I really try not to pull too much.

Edited November 17, 2014 by falcon_120

[Nedum]

Ok...I've been practicing like crazy with the F-15. Just trying to do a smooth turn at altitude is difficult; the hardest thing to control seemingly is the AoA. Even on a moderate turn, it seems to climb up and start shaking the plane, with the usual result that it 'departs', leaving me wallowing and flopping around the sky. I am try to ms,e a right turn to get behind a Mig-23... I find I am fighting the plane as much as the enemy. Why is that? Is the FM still too twitchy? What I am trying to force consistently is turn without it stalling or flopping on a depart. The speed is between 500 and 350...I try to limit the AoA by U.K. g only small pulls on the joystick, but no good. If I don't pull enough, i can't turn tightly enough yo get behind the enemy...even a Mif-23. But if I pull too hard to tighten the tighten the turn, even a reasonably tight turn, the AoA jumps and it shakes and stalls. What am I doing wrong? Or is it the too twitchy flight model? Or do I suck at controlling the plane?

 

Grateful views...

 

Apoll:huh:

 

It looks like your Axes config isn't done well.

I always have to clear the axes config. The axes are all the same at the first time for Stick, Paddles and Rudder. So if you push the throttle you may give some roll or some pitch?

I would review my device config at first.

I personally find that the F15 itself is very friendly for a Pilot even with a full load of weapons and Fuel.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Nedum

[MacEwan]

I'm pretty sure that at 30k feet the F-15 is not handling like it should. There seems to be something wrong with high altitude flight.

[fixen]

It shouldn't be to hard to fly. I suggest you take a look at your axis controls. Also check If you have force feedback enabled. If so, turn it off.

Last thing I can think of now could be that somehow your cas channels are off somehow.

 

Try posting a trackfile.

[fitness88]

I also find it to hard to control up high. Being at 30k M0.9-1.2 when I try to do a turn to crank the enemy on my radar to increase my F-pole I usually end up in a stall that makes me lose 2 seconds to recover. I would like to know if it should behave like this.

 

I use linear curve and a ch fighterstick and I really try not to pull too much.

 

 

 

I find the air at 30k a little too thin for any sort of sudden/hard maneuvering. 30k is good for fuel saving/ferrying the plane from point 'A' to 'B'.

As mentioned, I too had similar problems until I adjusted my axis. Trial and error on that one.

[falcon_120]

30k is normal combat height for the eagles, it is where they excel, and planes like the raptors and eurofighters have stepped a notch in that even further. I wonder how that's possible with so many maneuvering troubles.

[mjmorrow]

30k is normal combat height for the eagles, it is where they excel, and planes like the raptors and eurofighters have stepped a notch in that even further. I wonder how that's possible with so many maneuvering troubles.

 

My guess: They climb out to a really scary high altitude, giving the AIM-120 the greatest store of potential energy possible, and whilst outside the effective range of the enemy weapon systems, they then Spamraam the enemy. If they get into a dogfight, I am willing to bet that it happens below 30, 000 feet and it is an unplanned accident, because there is no good reason to get anchored in a fight, when you have one wave after another wave of Allied planes performing Sweeps and SEAD, and what not. If you pass a slow turning fighter, you can blow right through and forward that info to a sweep flight, behind you, so they can take that slow turning plane out in their sweep.

 

:thumbup: MJ

Edited November 17, 2014 by mjmorrow

[Svend_Dellepude]

watch your AoA at high altitudes. should not exceed 18 units now. I'm sure this will get fixed at some point when the FM is finished.

30k ~ 3G

40k ~ 2G

Depends of loadout of course.

[Kalastaja]

Im having the same exact problem. If i do like a 4g turn at 30 000 feet, the plane starts shaking pretty violently and almost goes into a spin :D I have the same stick btw.

[GGTharos]

It's probably getting worked on. The F-15 should be quite stable up to 30uAoA, after that you take your chances :)

 

watch your AoA at high altitudes. should not exceed 18 units now. I'm sure this will get fixed at some point when the FM is finished.

30k ~ 3G

40k ~ 2G

Depends of loadout of course.

[Holbeach]

The way to check a flight model is to come out of the clouds and get into a tight circuit.

The F-15C FM is simply not up to it.

It will rattle around the corners like an old oil drum.

 

Here's the real deal.

 

Circuit height is 1500 ft. Try it but keep it tight.

 

 

[GGTharos]

Do you have an external views track that demonstrates the problem as compared to this video?

[apoll]

Hmmm. Then I would say, based in the feedback here, is that:

 

A) I'm not the only one experiencing difficulties in the FM;

B) that there does seem to be a problem with the FM up to and including 30k; and

C) the F-15 should not be so hard to control.

 

When is this likely yo be fixed? The AFM/PFM had been out for some time now. A fix soon?

 

Apoll

[apoll]

Btw, I think my curves are fine; they are based on what people I the forum are using. I have a Warthog, and it is set to a nice curve of 30 with no dead zones. Works well in the Warthog A-10c. Don't think it is a curves problem on my HOTAS...correct me if I'm wrong please....

 

Apoll

[apoll]

Yea Holbeach...you try and do that fast climbing tight turn in DCS F-15 with the AFM at present. The thing will rattle, shake and 'depart', to use that quaint term. IE, it will flip snd roll and stall... Something is definitely not tight...hope they fix it asap, as I will get sliced and diced in dogfighting anything beyond an ICBM at present if I try and turn...

 

Apoll

[Holbeach]

Do you have an external views track that demonstrates the problem as compared to this video?

 

I've been trying for some time to do a decent circuit, as seen in the video, with the F-15, without much success, too shaky.

 

In the meantime here is the Flanker. The FM copes easily.

 

[GGTharos]

I do it in the eagle pretty much every other day. Your circuit is not tight and I don't see you following any particular procedure. Your approach speed is excessive, and your pull up speed is inadequate for an eagle.

 

What exactly are you doing in the f15? A video is OK but I want you to describe what you are doing please.

 

And FYI, airframe buffet past 22uAoA is real and is one of the ways that pilots can tell how the aircraft is performing in real life, without looking at instruments.

Edited November 17, 2014 by GGTharos

[apoll]

Well GGTharos, from what I am seeing in the real F-15 vid, and what he is describing as the problem, he us trying to pull up tight and steep in the F-15 at relatively low speed, thereby using a high AoA, and in this flight envelope, the current F-15 FM will shake, spit and flop out in a departure. The Su-27 FM, in stark contrast, however, handles it easily. Try doing a tight turn at 30 000 feet, and see what happens in the F-15. In my experience, and I've done it extensively trying to learn this beast, it just is too hard to keep level flight. The AoA rises too easily and when it goes anything above 22, it simply flood and shakes and departs. Then try dogfighting any of the Arussian aircraft with guns only, and you will find yourself fighting the aircraft as much, if not more, than the enemy. THIS is the problem. The real aircraft, judging by the vid above, does not have this problem. And if you ARE truly not having the above issues, please tell us how you are doing it. What speed do you start your turn at? Are you turning tightly at 30k? Can you reliably turn with, or at least enough to avoid being easily diced, with mist if the Arussian fighters? I can't. Hit even close; too hard in the F-15 because it simply wants to spit and depart if I attempt anything like a tight turn. THIS is the issue...at least from my perspective.

 

Thanks.

 

Apoll

[PFunk]

I'm noticing that there seems to be a overwhelming attitude of "hard = real". it must be real because it's so hard to do.

 

All I can say is that the Air Force breathed a huge sigh of relief with me. I wouldn't have lasted a minute in combat.

 

No, seriously. My average flight time in DCS is about a minute and a half.

[apoll]

Well Pfunk, 'real' in this case does not seem to be as hard as it currently is in the DCS rendition of the F-15 FM. In this case, it surely cannot be as hard as it seems in real life as it is in the dim; the airforce would have flatly rejected the plane. I'm all for getting it as real as possible; that's why I sim. But clearly something is off in this FM that they have not fixed yet (and should get a wriggle on in my opinion, given how long it's been out). Just try doing what the real pilots are doing in an F-15 in the bud in the sim. Just try it...and see what happens...

 

Hope they address it and not just leave it....

 

Apoll

[PFunk]

Well, I'm pretty much experiencing the same thing. I can't imagine why the Air Force would've wanted the F-15 and similarly, I can't see how it would've been effective at countering the Foxbat....

 

....or I'm just a crap pilot.

[GGTharos]

Well GGTharos, from what I am seeing in the real F-15 vid, and what he is describing as the problem, he us trying to pull up tight and steep in the F-15 at relatively low speed, thereby using a high AoA, and in this flight envelope, the current F-15 FM will shake, spit and flop out in a departure.

 

Great! Where do you see speed and AoA in this video?

 

The Su-27 FM, in stark contrast, however, handles it easily.

 

The Su-27 will handle a couple degrees more of AoA than the Eagle.

 

Try doing a tight turn at 30 000 feet, and see what happens in the F-15.

 

This has nothing to do with the low-altitude performance, and in particular, it has nothing to do with how it's flown in a landing pattern.

 

The AoA rises too easily and when it goes anything above 22, it simply flood and shakes and departs. Then try dogfighting any of the Arussian aircraft with guns only, and you will find yourself fighting the aircraft as much, if not more, than the enemy.

 

Did it a short time ago, some were asking why their flankers are being out-turned by an F-15. Had to drag them to medium altitudes most of the time, too, so it wasn't all SL.

 

The real aircraft, judging by the vid above, does not have this problem.

 

There's nothing for you to judge in the video. You don't know the aircraft weight, you don't know the speed, the AoA, or the G the maneuvers are being executed at. You've got nothing, and you're very wrong about your assumption of 'slow speed and thus high AoA'. All of this is done very smoothly.

 

And if you ARE truly not having the above issues, please tell us how you are doing it. What speed do you start your turn at?

 

Which turn? There are a whole bunch of turns there. And it also depends on how loaded you are. If you're a 45000lbs jet, forget that type of landing approach. If you're at 35000lbs, we can talk about it - that's just to start with.

 

The initial OHB approach (for me, though it's also ONE of the real procedures - ie. there are others) is 300-350kts (typically 300) at 1500' AGL. Fly down the runway to the mid-point, make a 3G break. Your airspeed should be about 220kts when you roll out going in the opposite direction.

 

Gear/Flaps down as you pass RWY 500' markers (or eyeball it), continue at 1500' AGL (always with respect to touch down point), and let speed decay to 180kts. 45 deg bank into the RWY, let nose drop to -10 deg before you start tuning, then apply back-stick pressure. Ideally you should not exceed 25uAoA here, not should you drop below safe turning speed for your weight and bank. If you hit 30uAoA, abort.

 

Roll out on RWY heading, establish 2.5-3 deg glide slope (if you did the turn right, you're on it), maintain 21uAoA that is required for landing, execute normal approach (abort if you're not able to hit the right AoA in time, but if you did the turn right ... you should be on the ball).

 

For the go-around, keep 21AoA, add power and smoothly pull the nose up to fly level without touching the runway (in RL this is done to save on tyre wear), go to MIL and lower the nose as required to fly level.

 

Accelerate at MIL to 300-350, keep the speed to EOR (this is for safety, because there may be other traffic doing OHBs above you. You don't want to pull up into another jet), then bank and pull up keeping 3-4g (5g if you want it sporty) and keeping some power to end up heading in the opposite direction at 220kts, 1500' AGL ... if you make the turn too tight, you won't be able to turn back into RWY heading correctly and you will overshoot the RWY heading (in this case, abort).

 

Are you turning tightly at 30k?

 

Yep, but stability is poor at high altitudes and it shouldn't be. I'm sure it's being worked on. You have to very accurately avoid roll input while g-ing it up. One axis at a time.

 

Can you reliably turn with, or at least enough to avoid being easily diced, with mist if the Arussian fighters? I can't. Hit even close; too hard in the F-15 because it simply wants to spit and depart if I attempt anything like a tight turn. THIS is the issue...at least from my perspective.

 

Yes I can. You're a) flying too ham-fisted, and b) the flankers are superior angles fighters. They are very difficult to fight and defeat, if you don't know what you're doing (and I mean really, really know what you're doing) they'll slice you up. This is a BFM training issue - the aircraft problem adds to your frustration but it's sort of secondary. In other words, if the F-15 flew like it's on rails, you'd still get sliced up.

[GGTharos]

No, the aircraft performs ok at SL/low altitude. There are increasing issues as altitude increases, and they're being looked into. It should fly pretty stable even with asymmetrical loading up to 30uAoA.

 

However, as far as the landing patterns are concerned, those are easy provided that you correctly fly the aircraft and execute the procedures correctly. If you just ham-fist it, you're essentially asking for it since you're throwing the aircraft about at what is essentially the edge of the envelope.

 

I'm noticing that there seems to be a overwhelming attitude of "hard = real". it must be real because it's so hard to do.

[PFunk]

Meh. I just go until the missile gets me. I don't think I've ever landed one yet.