R-27 ET "Anomalies"

[Shepski]

And Shepski is very right about the NP (launch auth) on russian fighters. It shows up when you are in optimal range, not max range. We actually use the maximum possible range to non manuevering targets when maddoging R-27ET.

 

Exactly... firing an ET at 20 km("NP" at 7.5 km) vs a C-17 will result in an easy kill. Firing at 20 km vs an F-5E will result in a miss.

[504 Wolverine]

So in laymans terms, the ET *IS* locked on to the target as soon as it's within the R-max and the actual fact that it is sucessful at downing targets is because they are not a manouvering target?

 

and "NP" is when you are at optimal range and not R-max?

[Pilotasso]

you still cant expect it to reaquire targets or swich them without an initial lock. Thats what I did with some of the ET missiles in the tracks.

[Pilotasso]

If you fly "low and pop a few chaff cartridges", Amraam will shoot you down 99% of times. You need to do a lot more then that. Don't try make it look like everyone can dodge it, regardless of the skill and circumstances, cuz it's not the way it is.

 

You seem to forget that by flying in the F-15 I dont get rid of the AMRAAM's being shot at me. ;) AND that I do not always fly the eagle. Infact the only plane I havent flown is the frog.

[Shaman]

So in laymans terms, the ET *IS* locked on to the target as soon as it's within the R-max and the actual fact that it is sucessful at downing targets is because they are not a manouvering target?

 

and "NP" is when you are at optimal range and not R-max?

Exaclty. That's the whole trick. They keep flying averagely the same course at average the same descent or climb rate, so we maddog our ETs towards the place where it will meet with the plane. (it takes practice to actually aim it /lead/ well)

Just a simple change of flightpath or even 1 flare, does the trick to evade that missile. Though most people aren't doing this, because they don't assume ET is already flying towards them.

[Pilotasso]

IRL you cant maddog IR missiles. It has beeen explained here why several times. Your returning into the very issues I wrote this thread for.

[Shepski]

You seem to forget that by flying in the F-15 I dont get rid of the AMRAAM's being shot at me. ;) AND that I do not always fly the eagle. Infact the only plane I havent flown is the frog.

 

 

You haven't experienced the AFM and avionics of the Su-25T?

[D-Scythe]

That's true. You can drop all the chaff cartridges one after another in super fast sequence, and you'll get owned by AMRAAM. That's just plain stupid. I once was stupid enough to believe chaff was the ultimate solution for ARH missilesm, which is totally not true. You must learn how to use speed, alt, and your fighters agility, plus RWR and visual contact with the missile and last moment chuck-norris movements to actually avoid AMRAAM. But when you learn it, at longer ranges it's fairly easy. Though after 1st, 2nd.. AMRAAM, comes the 3rd shot, which kills you, because you can't dodge them all (own energy bleed, RWR clutter..).

And remember that your enemy has 8 of them. EIGHT OF THEM!

 

Are we playing the same game? Chaff is *most* effective head on against an AMRAAM (which is absolutely false IRL btw).

 

If you know what you are doing, you can dance around in the AMRAAM's NEZ all day without anything even coming close to hitting you, even at 100% slider.

 

I've read about engagments with usage of those missile and it seems lots of them have been fired they missed horribly.

 

I hope you're going to elaborate...? I only heard of R-27s being fired and many missing horribly, not AMRAAM.

 

BTW, I would like to know how lock on after launch (maddogging) would work with an IR missile. Really, I would. Cause from where I'm standing, it is *not* possible.

[Pilotasso]

You haven't experienced the AFM and avionics of the Su-25T?

 

Yeah. I used it a few times to fly solo aerobatics around and do some touches and gos, but thats pretty much about it. Im a fast jet multirrole slob. Not exactly the pure dogfighter I might seem here. But its because of the games flyables that wont let me do it.

 

Edit: I just remembered I went nuts some months ago and tryied the frog online with Anit radiation missiles. Was hard just to start it and I never managed to return home alive. It was before the stats but I have never returned to it since.

[Ice]

Well this debate certainly went downhill whilst I was sleeping.

 

If people dont cheat then whatever tactics they use to get a kill or to survive should be respected. Barking that someones tactics are cheap or lame imo makes the barker cheap or lame. If stratistics boards make people more careful with a virtual multi million Dollar jet and a life then Whats wrong with that? We are after trying to simulate the Real thing. How can we be so pedantic about physics and such but if pilots try to fly like real we complain? Strange.

 

think the server statistics are part of that... people are too worried about their scores now... I love to get dirty and fight regardless of the outcome. That's also why I suck at online FPS games like Call of Duty... I run in guns blazing!

Mark, Your comment surprised me a little yesterday and after our flight together I thought you may have changed your mind. What was your score after an hour? 6 kills 2 losses in a Su-27? On a statistics server too :-)

 

No one really expects missiles in this sim to be perfect but everyone has the oportunity to use whichever aircraft or loadout they want and make the most of it.

 

I'm yet to be taken out by a uber ET and people seem to be maddogging AIM120's and R77's alot less since 1.11.

 

Pilot without a doubt the best opponent I can find in a F15. But frankly your tactics in the 33 have or any other Russian bird have a long way to go.

 

I record All my tracks and have so for quite some time. I often play them back and study my mistakes and I am yet to see a long range ET shot successfully take me out let alone actually lock me. In my experiments last night I could only make it lock because I knew where the ai was going. By the time the ET go to Seeking range it was so slow it had no chance of hitting the target. The AIM 120's however still required a very clever maneuver to safely get around. ET's are still the second choice. In a fresh 1 v 1 enagement the bandit will fire ER's or 77's and then ET's if he gets the chance. If the oponent doesnt spot the ET Platform lining up a shot at 8500 meters 40km away then he deserves to be hit IMO.

[Shepski]

you still cant expect it to reaquire targets or swich them without an initial lock. Thats what I did with some of the ET missiles in the tracks.

 

Realworld seeker specifics I have no idea on but, IMO, and IR missile seeker should be able to pick up the heat signature of an aircraft moving fast in cold outside temps(at altitude). The heat genertated by the friction of the air on the leading edge of the wing at crusie speed is enough to melt ice... add to that the engine heat(especially with burners on) and I can't see why an IR seeker can't lock onto anything hot it sees in it's FOV.

[Shaman]

Are we playing the same game? Chaff is *most* effective head on against an AMRAAM (which is absolutely false IRL btw).

I guess we don't.

I guess that as beta-tester you keep playing diffrent builds then I do.

 

Show me how you avoid AMRAAMs by flying straight and doing nothing but just few chaff drops.

Or better, a few AMRAAMS flying one after another.

Though any clinically conducted test or rather I should call laboratory enviroment test is does not resemble any complex situation that we meet on truly PvP servers.

[Pilotasso]

I'm yet to be taken out by a uber ET [...]

 

Sorry, your wrong...I did it to you just some 24 hours ago, remenber? And yes it was maddoged.

 

Infact it was my very first use of my new ET specific macro for my X52 online.

 

I should have known better and kept flying in to your general direction and you launched just before you died, and I went down for your ET as well.

 

I dont think you were aware of it but I announced I was going to test this on your server to some of your squad mates when I entered it yesterday. I posted this thread the following morning to discuss just that. Im am sorry for this but I have had lured you into some of remarks you made here to get my point seen. Cheers! ;)

[Kenan]

Originally Posted by Ice

I'm yet to be taken out by a uber ET [...]

 

Sorry, your wrong...I did it to you just some 24 hours ago, remenber?

 

ROFL

[Ice]

Kenan, I get the distinct impression your trying to cause trouble. That's up to you i guess.

 

Pilot If its the engagement I think it is and I have the track and will check You fired your ER's which missed and I managed to hit you with mine whilst F-poling. We were within 10 km when your ET hit me. I made the mistake of assuming there were no more missiles heading me way. But that's how it is meant to be.

 

Now the next enagement was a beauty. You were in a 33, I was in a 27. We fired at similar times and I F-poled your first volley and you turned tail. I went EOS and followed you over the water. You made the mistake of thinking you were clear and I fired 2 EOS ET's as you turned back... Bang Bang you be dead.

 

As far as your maddogged ET, It was fired within the limits. wether it Madogged or not I would not know the difference if u are using EOS.

[Pilotasso]

Yeah I have been uninspired lately. Im a bit desoriented trying to get past the F-15 difficulties to score kills. been trying so hard that I had infact lost some confidence to tactics. I usualy sniff an ambush a mile away. But not this time. Cheers!

[capttrob]

If stratistics boards make people more careful with a virtual multi million Dollar jet and a life then Whats wrong with that? We are after trying to simulate the Real thing. How can we be so pedantic about physics and such but if pilots try to fly like real we complain? Strange.

 

 

Nothing wrong with that. If everyone hugged their SAM batteries and never went out for the hunt, i gather this game would get pretty boring online pretty fast. The day i flew with you guys was alot of fun because it was structured teamwork. But it was the first time i had to RTB without an engagement because our opponent never left the comfort of his SAM batteries. I realize why he did it because it was 3 of us and one of him (and i found out first hand what it was like when i went hunting for him and got wacked by a SAM). But i bought a combat game.. i wanna see some combat... even if its me getting batted...;)

 

It would be really cool to have flyable bomber with escorts in online missions (heavy bomber stuff with nukes... not SEAD escort). Dont know if that is possible now... but i think it would be alot of fun.

 

edit: I also gather the tactics i am developing while learning this game and its bugs to improve my kill ratio are probably quite different than real world F-15 tactics. In other words, im much more effective (almost 3-5 times more effective) if i come in from the weeds, whereas i understand the real F-15 is a high altitude all weather interceptor.

[Shaman]

It would be really cool to have flyable bomber with escorts in online missions (heavy bomber stuff with nukes... not SEAD escort). Dont know if that is possible now... but i think it would be alot of fun.

Lol, forget about nuclear bombs.

 

Organization.

That's the advantage of being in a squad.

We fly organized CAP/GAI+CAS/SEAD/DEAD flights on dedicated server. If this is really something you are looking forward to, you should join an active lockon squadron. It's much more interesting. And you won't have to worry about enemy fighter just running under it's own airdefense. Because at that moment SEAD/DEAD will do what they were meant to :) so you'll catch that bastard with his pants down.

[Gripes]

... If the oponent doesnt spot the ET Platform lining up a shot at 8500 meters 40km away then he deserves to be hit IMO.

 

Since you put it this way - I kinda agree.

The only 2 times I`ve been hit by ETs, I was straight and level, smoking a

cigar on my way home, so to me it was a simple sneakup attack and flying

a single-ship w/o any DL or real:icon_excl AWACS support...

Anyways, it`s good to know about these quirks. Thanks Pilotasso and others (that have enough time available for testing) for sharing your findings.

[capttrob]

in reply to shamandgg

 

I agree, getting some SEAD's in there is very effective. We did that the other day with Scorpion. Was fun to watch the turnover rate on the other side after their SAM's were gone. Many pilots left...lol

 

As far as the squad thing... im in the 54th which is mainly an IL2 squad. But many of them are getting up to speed now on LOFC. Great bunch of guys and we always have a blast flying together, so im remaining loyal to the 54th rather than seeking out a different number to put in front of my flying tag.. As more of them come up to speed hopefully we'll be able to put something together while adding to the LOFC community. But in the meantime, you guys will have more targets to shoot at.. ;)

[Kenan]

Kenan, I get the distinct impression your trying to cause trouble. That's up to you i guess.

 

Nah, I was just laughing at Pilotasso's reply to your comment.

I thought it was pretty much obvious without me having to spell it out for you.

[Shepski]

Mark, Your comment surprised me a little yesterday and after our flight together I thought you may have changed your mind. What was your score after an hour? 6 kills 2 losses in a Su-27? On a statistics server too :-)

 

Hehe.. I was only killed by one jet and the other was a SAM.

 

I still try to fly with smarts but I'm never upset with getting shot down so I won't hide out in a SAM blanket all day and I won't go into a 3 vs 1 engagement knowingly.

 

I was bold yesterday... hanging out near Maykop waiting for the bad guys to take off then I'd close in and suprise them while having to deal with the SAMs. I got 2 or 3 kills that way... and wacked once by a Tunguska. :)

[Ice]

Pilot I have found the track and it is here for observation. Your ET was fired at 16 km and from height while i was in high speed closure. I suspect that you would have had LA regardless. If not then only just out. It is also interesting to note that you were killed by my ER well before your ET hit me and you were running away. Pretty good track actually. I think I will keep this one. If I'd dropped a couple of flares I might have survived. That was my mistake. I assumed you'd turned tail b4 letting off an ET. A bad mistake at that.

[Ice]

edit: I also gather the tactics i am developing while learning this game and its bugs to improve my kill ratio are probably quite different than real world F-15 tactics. In other words, im much more effective (almost 3-5 times more effective) if i come in from the weeds, whereas i understand the real F-15 is a high altitude all weather interceptor.

 

I think you'll find the best F15 Pilots still prefer to look down and get better kill stats this way.

[capttrob]

I think you'll find the best F15 Pilots still prefer to look down and get better kill stats this way.

 

I tried it when i first starting flying the 15. But many pilots online have tons of experience with LOMAC and know how to beam very well. I used to come in high... very high... for the range (it only makes sense to a noob to get more range), but being that more range with the current effectiveness of the AMRAAM is pointless, it made more sense to me to rope them in closer using my stick and rudder skills getting them in the NEZ.

 

Now that i have more knowledge of the LOFC F-15 and more knowledge of the opposition weapons systems, i should probably be trying some more high alt ops and see how it works out....