K-4 is a P51 Killer

[Hadwell]

From what i read the P51 should be much faster and climb better than a k4 without mw50(I want to fly like that to simulate a 109G's performance).

Does this apply to DCS ?

 

 

no the P-51 can't climb better than the 109 if their engines are what's pulling them up, the 109 has a better thrust-weight ratio

 

if a P51 and a 109 are going 700kph, and they go streight up at full power, the 109 will stall long before the 51, you need to use the MASS of the p-51, it's weight, not just its engine power, also the wings on the P-51 allow for higher speeds with less drag than the older design of the 109

 

for the 109 pilot, i suggest learning how to fly low and close to the ground, learning to bait p-51s into turn fights, and learning to conserve energy for fast 90 degree turns, you'll need to get good at them, P-51s have a tough time hitting anything when the target their bouncing keeps veering too far in one direction to adjust without snapping off a wing...

 

If you get bounced, your goal is to equalize your energy levels, with equal energy levels (hes co-alt at the same speed as you) you have better acceleration and maneuverability in the 109, as long as he's got more alititude and is faster than you, you're his prey (assuming he doesn't fly right in front of your guns).

 

 

P-51 pilots, i suggest getting really good at luftberys, immelmans, vertical split S's, hammerheads, Chandelle, and yes i know one is a tactic and the rest are maneuvers. but if you let a 109 too far above you and give him enough energy, he will eat you alive.

 

if you fly the 51 properly then any turn you make more than 30 degrees or so should be an immelman turn, instead of bleeding your airspeed off with a flat turn, convert all that energy into altitude first, then make the turn.

 

 

to sum it up: P-51 = vertical flier, BF-109 = horizontal flier

keep in mind, this is all my experience, just advice.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Hadwell

[313_Nevo]

these real world tactics are so bothering.. its obvious that everyone is missing fun dogfights P51 vs P51 :D

[MiloMorai]

if you fly the 51 properly then any turn you make more than 30 degrees or so should be an immelman turn, instead of bleeding your airspeed off with a flat turn, convert all that energy into altitude first, then make the turn.

Also called I believe a yo-yo turn.

 

 

RL P-47 pilots used this while chasing 109s with good results.

 

There is also the lag displacement roll.

 

 

This is a must read, http://www.combatsim.com/htm/2000/09/stk_eaw_new/page2.htm

[Hadwell]

Also called I believe a yo-yo turn.

 

 

RL P-47 pilots used this while chasing 109s with good results.

 

There is also the lag displacement roll.

 

 

This is a must read, http://www.combatsim.com/htm/2000/09/stk_eaw_new/page2.htm

but the P-51 doesn't turn that well, you'll lose too much energy, when you can just climb back up to safety and bounce him again...

 

if you have a buddy with you that can keep you safe then sure, but otherwise, don't engage, bounce and away, boom and zoom, p-51 is one of the best planes in the world at it.

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1222/index.htm good one too

 

the goal is to always have an exit strategy, that's what I'm trying to explain how to do...

 

 

for the P-51's its to get a quick pass on the enemy so the enemy doesn't have much time to react before their out of range

 

for the 109s its to try to get the enemy to lose that speed and energy, or get their energy up to equal levels somehow, so they can turn in behind them.

 

I wish i still had my old IL2FB tracks... too many years flying the 109 lol...

Edited December 8, 2014 by Hadwell

[Solty]

Actually a high-yoyo always worked against 109s when you are on his tail. Go up then down and drop flaps. Bang bang. He is dead. But you have one shot at this. If you follow to long he will start to outturn the P-51. With G6 or G10 or G14, the P-51 could just say "bye" and fly the other way.

 

But K4 will reverse and get you. 109 is controling the fight. Always. Even if you have altitude advantage the K4 will (at least a good pilot would) use it against you. When you dive he will dive right in the moment you get close to him and when you start to pull up, he will pull up with you. You can have 50mph more speed, but 109 is lighter and has more powerful engine. One shot and you are dead.

 

Stop pretending like 109 is nothing for a P-51. Normal 109G6 was a close match for the 51, G10 was clutch. K4 is just better.

[Hadwell]

I most certainly am not acting like the 51 is better, but those later model 109s suffer from super high wing loading so their engine thrust had to compensate for the lack of lift from all the extra weight added

 

the P-51 will do a streight up zoom climb far longer than a 109....

 

and i think the reason people keep ripping wings off is because at high speeds, the elevator locks up, and in real life the pilot just wouldn't be strong enough to pull back, but here, that's not a problem.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Hadwell

[Crumpp]

109s suffer from super high wing loading

 

That is not a bad thing by any means. Lots of airplanes have been purposely designed to have high wing loading.

 

There is not such thing as "lack of lift" either.

[jermin]

to sum it up: P-51 = vertical flier, BF-109 = horizontal flier

keep in mind, this is all my experience, just advice.

 

If this is what you conclude from your DCS multiplayer gameplay, then ED has done something very wrong.

 

For P-51, speed is paramount. Going into a vertical climb will make it an easy target when it's approaching the top of the climb and long after it reaches there.

 

Horizontal turns are for spitfires. Bf 109 is actually an energy fighter. If you know how to manage your energy, you will be safe while at the same time deadly at any altitude.

[Solty]

If this is what you conclude from your DCS multiplayer gameplay, then ED has done something very wrong.

 

For P-51, speed is paramount. Going into a vertical climb will make it an easy target when it's approaching the top of the climb and long after it reaches there.

 

Horizontal turns are for spitfires. Bf 109 is actually an energy fighter. If you know how to manage your energy, you will be safe while at the same time deadly at any altitude.

Mate. When compared those two are just like that. Or even I would say. P-51 has only chance if it has better energy. 109 can win in any other type of scenario. 109 is better at T&B then the P-51. Simple stuff. Also, every fighter is an energy fighter. Spitfire can go vertical to and MKIX is more then capable of B&Z some 109s if it has the energy to do it. The fact is, Spits don't have to do that. They CAN turn with you, so very often the choose to do so.

 

P-51 is an easy target when climbing, but there are 2 types of climb.

Normal climb, at optimal speed.

Zoom climb at high speed.

 

In the first one Bf109 has an edge.

In the second one the P-51 has the advantage as it has greater momentum as it is almost 2xtimes heavier then 109 and has very little drag when compared, so it keeps the energy very well.

 

If you don't have the game don't bother to respond.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Solty

[CorsairHundo]

According to this article http://users.atw.hu/kurfurst/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

The full boost of 1.98 was really never used due to engine failure.

 

In the sim how many are running wep for periods longer then a few minutes at a time? I've also read where RL pilots never used the wep in the K-4 as they were told over time you'd blow your engine. It would be nice if we were able to get in the same plane each time (unless you were shot out of the sky) to give us more immersion.

[MiloMorai]

True, but the guy who designed that longitudinal canopy frame in the center top of the D-9 canopy should have been fired from Focke-Wulf early on... and then maybe crucified, hanged and impaled.

 

How do you expect the canopy to open without busting the canopy glazing?

 

The distance between the canopy tracks was wider when the canopy was in the closed position than when in the open position.

[Friedrich-4B]

According to this article http://users.atw.hu/kurfurst/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

The full boost of 1.98 was really never used due to engine failure.

 

In the sim how many are running wep for periods longer then a few minutes at a time? I've also read where RL pilots never used the wep in the K-4 as they were told over time you'd blow your engine. It would be nice if we were able to get in the same plane each time (unless you were shot out of the sky) to give us more immersion.

 

The article quoted isn't worth bothering with for serious research. That aside, it's interesting to read Hugh Dowding's admonishment to his Fighter Command pilots during the battle of Britain, regarding the use of +12lbs WEP: use it, but be careful and don't abuse it is the main message.

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B

[CorsairHundo]

True. My point in sharing this info was to show the 1.98 boost wasn't used according to this article. What boost is used in this sim?

 

 

It's interesting to read Hugh Dowding's admonishment, regarding using WEP, to his Fighter Command pilots during the battle of Britain

 

 

In the end it was more than likely up to individual pilots as to how or when they would resort to WEP - if a K-4 pilot was confronted with a pack of angry P-51s and the only means of escape was through using WEP, the last thing on his mind would be the effects on his engine...

[Friedrich-4B]

True. My point in sharing this info was to show the 1.98 boost wasn't used according to this article. What boost is used in this sim?

 

The Mustang's using 67" Hg, the K-4 1.8 ata plus MW50.

[CorsairHundo]

"Niederschrift Nr 6730 of Daimler Benz dated 24 January 1945 states: Testing of 1.98 boost pressure may be done provisionally at group 2/11, the rest of the tests with appropriate engines already started having failed. Only engines with 1.8 boost may be supplied. Strict punishment is threatened if this instruction is neglected. (Nach Lage der Dinge wird denn festgelegt, dass vorläufig die Erprobung des Ladedruckes 1,98 ata nur bei der Gruppe 2/11 durchgeführt werden darf, und dass im übrigen nur die bereits angelaufenen Erprobungen mit entsprechenden Motoren ausgefallen sind. Der Nachschub für diese Motoren darf dann nur mit Motoren mit Einstellung 1,8 ata Ladedruck erflogen. Bei Nichtbeachtung dieses Befehls wird strenge Bestrafung angedroht.)"

 

 

Maximum level speeds obtained with various boosts on the Bf 109 K-4 with 1.75ata (DM), 1.8ata (DB) and 1.98ata (DC)

 

Note early production batches only DB and DC, as on most machines Above rated alt identical to DB/1.8ata

Engine type, boost, and power output at SL DB 605 DM,

1.75ata, 1800 PS

DB 605 DB,

1.8ata, 1850 PS

DB 605 DC,

1.98ata, 2000 PS

 

 

Source GL/C- E2, Stand vom 11th August 1944. Graphs 'Leistungen 8-109 K4 u. K6.' Mtt. A.G., 11th December 1944.

Speed at SL 580 kph or 360 mph 594 kph or 369 mph 607 kph or 377 mph

Speed at rated altitude 710 kph at 7.5km or 441mph at 24 600 ft

715 kph at 7.5km or

444mph at 24 600 ft

715 at 6km to 7.5km or

444 mph at 19 600 ft - 24 600 ft

[Crumpp]

n the end it was more than likely up to individual pilots as to how or when they would resort to WEP - if a K-4 pilot was confronted with a pack of angry P-51s and the only means of escape was through using WEP, the last thing on his mind would be the effects on his engine...

 

I cannot imagine a pilot thinking like this. Yes, he would be thinking to do what he had to survive, including not destroying himself.

 

A.P. 2095 Pilot's Notes General for the RAF gives detailed instructions as the methods of determining engine and propeller limitations.

 

It is quite clear the why the limitations are set and uses the words for a margin of safety against immediate breakdown of the engine.

[CorsairHundo]

I don't think if you returned to base and told the chief mechanic, "I had to go to wep for longer then I wanted to in order to surive, so can you rebuild the engine tonight" I doubt they had the spare parts or time to do so. You may have survived that one but with that stress you may not make the next one?

 

Those guys were more then just a pilot pushing the throttle at will.

 

 

I cannot imagine a pilot thinking like this. Yes, he would be thinking to do what he had to survive, including not destroying himself.

 

A.P. 2095 Pilot's Notes General for the RAF gives detailed instructions as the methods of determining engine and propeller limitations.

 

It is quite clear the why the limitations are set and uses the words for a margin of safety against immediate breakdown of the engine.

[Crumpp]

I don't think if you returned to base and told the chief mechanic,

 

I agree, IF you returned to base.

 

You may have survived that one but with that stress you may not make the next one?

 

Absolutely and you have no idea how that engine was run before you climbed on board. Was it abused or broken properly on its ferry flight? Is it an overhaul or first run engine?

 

Unfortunately, all we get to hear about is the guys who gambled and got lucky. The ones that died have no voice.

 

Look at the changes to the Merlin engine series just to get +18 to run for a clearance of 5 minutes.

 

That represents 1000 hours of engine running time to get ONE engine to make it thru the endurance trials so the engine got cleared for +18lbs. That is only 6lbs more boost than the 12lbs the engine was previously cleared for....

 

Now add another 8lbs boost to +25lbs....you think the Merlin had some reliability issues at that extreme over-boost condition?

 

Of course it did. So didn't every engine that was extremely over-boosted whether it be a Merlin, BMW, P&W, or Diamiler Benz.

 

It is just the physics of adding more force to a mechanical device than it was originally designed to take.

[Crumpp]

except for pilots who have actually been in combat and faced a life-threatening situation?

 

Do Medevac missions count?

 

doubt very much whether Al Deere thought "Okay, just remember not to exceed the limitations

 

I do not get your point. He does not exceed any limitations in the anecdote you posted. Nice story but nothing to do with the topic.

 

Did you confuse your stories?

 

It could equally be argued that lots of pilots didn't return because they didn't take a gamble.

 

 

Possibly but modern accident studies, the engineering margins required for flight, and the physics say otherwise.

[Crumpp]

He continued flying until his engine caught fire through a lack of oil

]

What else is he going to do...his oil tank was shot up??? Nothing to do with exceeding limitations but rather combat damage.

 

Again, what does this have to do with the fact you don't abuse your plane because if you break it, you might not come home just as sure as if the enemy shot you down.

[CorsairHundo]

That engine was toast due to battle damage, not from wep. The best trained pilots that used that training and we're best prepared for battle were the victorious ones, not the ones with the faster plane. This guy in that article was dumb and lucky to survive

 

]

What else is he going to do...his oil tank was shot up??? Nothing to do with exceeding limitations but rather combat damage.

 

Again, what does this have to do with the fact you don't abuse your plane because if you break it, you might not come home just as sure as if the enemy shot you down.

[Yob]

Honestly

 

Havent we diverted from the original post. Its not about weather Mw-50 helps. He was stating its pure dog fighting ability against the mustang.

 

Not what variant bud fought and out turned. Can we please get back on topic, and on tactics that we can use.

 

Elijah

[Solty]

-wrong topic sry.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Solty

[NineLine]

Honestly

 

Havent we diverted from the original post. Its not about weather Mw-50 helps. He was stating its pure dog fighting ability against the mustang.

 

Not what variant bud fought and out turned. Can we please get back on topic, and on tactics that we can use.

 

Elijah

 

Ahmen, follow Yob's lead and discuss tactics related to what can be done in the sim please.

[CorsairHundo]

My bad! I drifted off on a tangent thinking the K-4 in here didn't have the right "boost", I was wrong and off topic