K-4 is a P51 Killer

[Dendro]

THIS HAWK IS A BEAST!

 

Besides my my wingtips ripping off for no reason:music_whistling: and takeoffs and landings a complete nightmare - no success yet:joystick: - this bird is going to cause a lot of problems for the p51 lovers.

 

It took serious concentration and a lot of manouevering to get behind a p51 in the Dora. Some dogfights vs AI P51 can go on for 10 - 20 minutes and sometime I get shot down when I can't spot the bugger.

 

Enter the K-4..... One or two turns and moves and I am quickly able to get above and behind with a gun solution coming soon after. You just wait for the AI pilot to go into one of its steep climbs in front of you and bingo..... pepper him with your machine guns (for fun) whilst you zoom past him in the vertical climb. Now you've got loads of E to dive on him and practice those boom 'n zooms. All this without even going a mm past 1.4ATA........ WHAT AM I MISSING? :huh:

[fastfreddie]

The K4's climb rate is better than the Dora so when facing the Ai Mustang with a zoom tendency its an easy kill. We'll have to wait to see how the K4 does against good piloted P-51s to see that statement be true. K4 appears its slower than the Dora at lower altitudes and didn't seem to have a great dive speed so getting out of trouble may be much harder. K4 may finally force P-51 pilots off the ground and have to use real tactics like having a height/speed advantage. Alot of them relied too heavy on the Mustang out turning the Dora for defense and the K4 may equalize that.

[Charly_Owl]

The K4's climb rate is better than the Dora so when facing the Ai Mustang with a zoom tendency its an easy kill. We'll have to wait to see how the K4 does against good piloted P-51s to see that statement be true. K4 appears its slower than the Dora at lower altitudes and didn't seem to have a great dive speed so getting out of trouble may be much harder. K4 may finally force P-51 pilots off the ground and have to use real tactics like having a height/speed advantage. Alot of them relied too heavy on the Mustang out turning the Dora for defense and the K4 may equalize that.

 

So true. I fought against a P-51 with a pilot that knew how to turn.

 

Two words: Deflection Shooting. :music_whistling:

[Dendro]

100% ..... I am talking purely from flying against AI where the K-4 molests the P51.

 

I have not managed to get into a MP because I need to learn to fly the planes completely before I attempt MP. I am sure its going to be a lot tougher once I meet real opponents.

[Random]

K4 is definately easier to turn with and the machineguns are very intuitive. My first time, literally the initial burst firing at a maneuvering player P51 lead to hits from nose to tail. Even with the p51 gyro sight I can't do that.

 

I think life is going to be very difficult for allied pilots until the VEAO Spit XIV comes along.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well...so far i only had very few dogfights against human flown P51s...all were rather at low altitude from tree top level to about 2000m...so for me it remains to be seen.i assume it will heavily depend on the altitude where those two oponents meet each other...

[Solty]

well...so far i only had very few dogfights against human flown P51s...all were rather at low altitude from tree top level to about 2000m...so for me it remains to be seen.i assume it will heavily depend on the altitude where those two oponents meet each other...

Tell me now what that altitude is going to be?:huh:

 

All objectives on maps are "destroy ground forces". To do that in the P-51 you have to go for low- level strike. Those that fly fighter cover cannot just go 7000m above and wait for the oponents. There won't be any. NOT A SINGLE. Why?

 

Because they have to cover ground forces. If there were B17s to protect...

 

Altitude pffff. Germans made planes for low to medium level flying. K4 just happens though to be faster than P-51 at high altitude. Also, even if difference is 1km between them and K4 is lower, it can just point up and catch the mustang. I bet that it even can catch a zooming mustang at that situation.

 

What can a P-51 do about BF109K4 ?

 

Hope for the pilot to be completely dumb or that he will not see him. If dogfight commences... and between good pilots... well in this situation lets enumerate P-51's advantages.

 

-Range

-Number of Ammo

 

If it was normal 109... but it has flettner tabs, which give it much more freedom of movment at high speeds. At 600kph a normal 109 would be stiff as a log, but not this one.

Also, getting into shooting position without beeing seen in multiplayer is impossible due to Flak coverage. People see you from 12 000m because of it.

 

Yeah, called it. :joystick:If the mustang won't get 75 octane fuel, its not going to win a lot. "This 109 is anything but normal"

 

If they made Bf109G6, things would be different:cry: K4 is rather a good comparisson with P-51H... but P-51D is just too old for that.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

bla bla bla....

 

All objectives on maps are "destroy ground forces". To do that in the P-51 you have to go for low- level strike....bla bla bla

 

not on the acg server...we have different mission objectives.

Edited December 5, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Hadwell]

P-51 should be faster than the 109, dive better, and have better elevator controls at top speed

 

don't ever try to fight a 109, get yourself an advantage or run, or both.

 

the P-51 is an energy fighter, but since there are so few ww2 era planes in DCS, people have been using it like a spitfire, now that the 109 is here, people are going to have to learn how to do vertical split S's and immelmans.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Hadwell

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

the P-51 is an energy fighter, but since there are so few ww2 era planes in DCS, people have been using it like a spitfire

 

^^this.people will have to adjust against the 109.its a different bird than the 190 and you want to fight it different.same will be true once the spit is out.luftwaffe pilots will have to adjust as well.

[Solty]

P-51 should be faster than the 109, dive better, and have better elevator controls at top speed

 

don't ever try to fight a 109, get yourself an advantage or run, or both.

 

the P-51 is an energy fighter, but since there are so few ww2 era planes in DCS, people have been using it like a spitfire, now that the 109 is here, people are going to have to learn how to do vertical split S's and immelmans.

 

No. The P-51 is not faster. It was faster than Bf109G6 and slightly faster than Bf109G10 or G14, but K4 is a different beast. It has 2200hp engine and because of flettner tabs the 109 has just as good handling at high speeds. It has also higher mach number than the P-51 so it can get out of high speeds easily, at which P-51 is done (due to compresiblity)

 

All fighters are energy fighters, but yes the P-51 is better at going vertical than horisontal, but that doesn't change one thing. It is 109K4.

 

If you go into a yoyo, it will cut your envelope and start scissors with you. At this point you are done. You can't run. It's faster. You'd better have a wingman.

^^this.people will have to adjust against the 109.its a different bird than the 190 and you want to fight it different.same will be true once the spit is out.luftwaffe pilots will have to adjust as well.

Why bla bla?:cry: Why you so mean? I was flying since Janes Attack Squadron through brief romance with Microsoft Combat Sim 2 and very long time spent at IL2 serries and lately at War Thunder. I also learned about all the planes, so don't act as if I was saying something stupid. It is all true and you know it.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Solty

[otto]

 

If the mustang won't get 75 octane fuel, its not going to win a lot.

 

I wish the mustang gets 75 octane fuel too.

 

 

If they made Bf109G6, things would be different:cry: K4 is rather a good comparisson with P-51H... but P-51D is just too old for that.

 

-I wish we got a 109g6 with the liberty to choose between mk108 30mm and mk 151 20mm.

Also the G6 is inferior in every way to the spitfire mk9 . So when i kill a spit pilot it's a great

feeling.

Last week(In Old il21946) i shot down 4 spits9,25lbs in one mission at low alt with a 109g14 all with an alt advantage over me.And these apits are better in every way vs the g14.

Of course i don't do this every time.No one can.

 

 

-The G6 turns a lot better than the k4. It's not as easy as you think to shoot down an experienced pilot with the p51.

Some people would still say it's so hard to shoot this g6. It should be sabotaged .This is the historical accurate way.

 

 

-The mustang weapons are now very powerfull.You can brake a 109 in half with a few hits.That's a bid advantage.

[mondo]

K4 is definately easier to turn with and the machineguns are very intuitive. My first time, literally the initial burst firing at a maneuvering player P51 lead to hits from nose to tail. Even with the p51 gyro sight I can't do that.

 

I think life is going to be very difficult for allied pilots until the VEAO Spit XIV comes along.

 

I find most things apart from taxiing easier on the K4. The 190 in comparison, for me at least is much harder to take off in and land and seems far less stable in flight.

[gavagai]

I think life is going to be very difficult for allied pilots until the VEAO Spit XIV comes along.

 

Tell me this sim won't devolve into a clusterf*#! of Spit XIVs and 109K-4s furballing near the ground, please!

:badmood:

 

In my opinion, wishing for a bigger gun is not a helpful outlook. First, reassess your tactics. Incessant defensive circles are not the way to victory with the P-51D and never were until the 190D-9 was its only opponent.

 

This 109K-4 does not have special performance compared to past flight sims (if anything it is more tricky to fly), and right now P-51 pilots can easily escape with a dive and a high g turn... which means, as usual, altitude is life.:thumbup:

[Kwiatek]

I dont have K-4 yet but my friend said that these things is not possible to stall at all in hard turns.

 

Yea i know that K-4 got slats which prevent a stall quite degree but still shouldn't be a stall proof. Also K-4 got quite high wingloading ( around 210 kg/m2) comparing to earlier version of 109.

 

I suspect that like Fw 190 D-9 also K-4 could be to easy to handling regarding stall characteristic in DCS?

 

Just some thoughs.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I dont have K-4 yet but my friend said that these things is not possible to stall at all in hard turns.

 

Yea i know that K-4 got slats which prevent a stall quite degree but still shouldn't be a stall proof. Also K-4 got quite high wingloading ( around 210 kg/m2) comparing to earlier version of 109.

 

I suspect that like Fw 190 D-9 also K-4 could be to easy to handling regarding stall characteristic in DCS?

 

Just some thoughs.

 

sorry but thats just not true :lol: i dont know what your friend does or if he really turns tight, but for sure the 109 stalls.

[gavagai]

sorry but thats just not true :lol: i dont know what your friend does or if he really turns tight, but for sure the 109 stalls.

 

No kidding. I've even tumbled in the 109K-4 and began to enter a tail spin.

 

Kwiatek, buy the damn module!:doh:

[fastfreddie]

P-51 should be faster than the 109, dive better, and have better elevator controls at top speed

 

don't ever try to fight a 109, get yourself an advantage or run, or both.

 

the P-51 is an energy fighter, but since there are so few ww2 era planes in DCS, people have been using it like a spitfire, now that the 109 is here, people are going to have to learn how to do vertical split S's and immelmans.

 

Pretty much what I was saying ... Mustang pilots will finally have to learn to have altitude and speed just like the Dora pilots. This doesn't mean flying up to 7000m but I almost always fly in the 3k-5k range just to have a realistic shot of beating a good Mustang pilot in the Dora. You need to have around a 1000 meters of altitude to retain an energy advantage against the Mustang in a Dora. Mustang pilots will need to have an altitude advantage now or at least altitude so they can dive away ... just like Dora pilots if they get in trouble.

 

I haven't flown the 109 enough to be positive but I get the feeling that the Mustang is still the best overall WWII plane in DCS at the moment. It's general speed at most altitudes other than tree top level, dive speed, climb, turning, visibility, and gunsight make it better than both German planes with the combination of these things. The Mustang may not beat both planes in every category but it will beat each German plane in something that it can use to its advantage.

[otto]

Every plane stalls even the spitfire will stall.

[Yob]

Pretty much what I was saying ... Mustang pilots will finally have to learn to have altitude and speed just like the Dora pilots. This doesn't mean flying up to 7000m but I almost always fly in the 3k-5k range just to have a realistic shot of beating a good Mustang pilot in the Dora. You need to have around a 1000 meters of altitude to retain an energy advantage against the Mustang in a Dora. Mustang pilots will need to have an altitude advantage now or at least altitude so they can dive away ... just like Dora pilots if they get in trouble.

 

I haven't flown the 109 enough to be positive but I get the feeling that the Mustang is still the best overall WWII plane in DCS at the moment. It's general speed at most altitudes other than tree top level, dive speed, climb, turning, visibility, and gunsight make it better than both German planes with the combination of these things. The Mustang may not beat both planes in every category but it will beat each German plane in something that it can use to its advantage.

 

And in reality, it depends a lot more on the pilot then the aircraft. I would choose the 109 over the mustang, only for its turning. It really depends. I love the dora but did not fly it in combat course i was scared of energy fighting. i am not a natural energy pilot. I can however turn well, and attribute that to all my mustang kills.

 

So in honest examination, the Mustang will have an advantage once the AI-B-17 comes out. and i really dont want to see this sim end up with loads of 109's and Spitfire XIV's at low attitude in a knife fight in a phone box.

 

But if mission makers in the ACG,Burning Skies and DOW servers make sure that there are soon high alt missions, even if your escorting a an-26. the mustang will regin at high alt.

 

WHY? because i believe the mustang then becomes much more evanly matched with the Kurfurst in turning. Because at high altitudes the mustang is an amazing aircraft.

 

And how many of us have dogfight a mustang a high alt. very few.

 

I am soon going to conduct a group of experiments at altitude levels from tree top to angels 35, to see at what alts the Mustang,Dora and Kurfust have there superior area's.

 

if we get 75 Octaine fuel which i hope, to level and be more realistic, it may help the mustang.

 

But hold on, we are doing this all wrong.

 

Remember the mustang had a huge number advantage against the Luftwaffe, so maybe in mission, a lot of AI Mustangs can be added. Like a killer Bees of mustangs. To see just how long Kurfust guys can hold up.

 

Yob

487th Squadron,

Section Leader.

[Kwiatek]

No kidding. I've even tumbled in the 109K-4 and began to enter a tail spin.

 

Kwiatek, buy the damn module!:doh:

 

I hope so casue im little dissapointment with Fw 190 D-9 spinproof in DCS.

 

I will buy it but not yet now :)

[mondo]

Tell me this sim won't devolve into a clusterf*#! of Spit XIVs and 109K-4s furballing near the ground, please!

:badmood:

 

I hope not but I can see this going down the same route some players tried to push the old IL2: wanting the latest greatest versions rather than what was typical at the time.

[OnlyforDCS]

I dont see a problem here.

 

These are full DCS modules. They are modeled to the best of the developer's knowledge down to the last historical detail.

 

If you guys expecting the devs to BALANCE these planes you should maybe find a game that does do just that. This is a sim through and through, there will be no balancing here. At least I hope thats the case.

[MiloMorai]

This 75 octane must be a typo Yob because the standard fuel for the Merlins was 100/130 octane?

 

In overall numbers the P-51 outnumbered the Lw but on the bomber escort missions not so. It might say 600 P-51s escorted the bombers but those P-51s would be spread out all along the bomber formation and not all of the 600 P-51s were with the bombers at the same time.

[DB 605]

No. The P-51 is not faster. It was faster than Bf109G6 and slightly faster than Bf109G10 or G14, but K4 is a different beast. It has 2200hp engine and because of flettner tabs the 109 has just as good handling at high speeds. It has also higher mach number than the P-51 so it can get out of high speeds easily, at which P-51 is done (due to compresiblity)

 

All fighters are energy fighters, but yes the P-51 is better at going vertical than horisontal, but that doesn't change one thing. It is 109K4.

 

 

Sorry but first you have to get your facts right.

 

1. K4 and P51 have pretty damn close max speed, K4 with MW50 is claimed 715km/h, without MW ~670km/h. P-51 top speed is around 710km/h.

 

2. K4 does not have 2200hp engine but 1800hp with MW 50. Without MW around 1500hp.

 

3. K4 in DCS does not have flettner tabs. It has same ailerons as G models because majority of K4's had them IRL. It does not turn faster than "regular" G6. And you must understand that, while 109s tend to get stiff on faster speeds it was still fully manouverable, you just had to use more power to turn etc. Being stiff or hard does not mean unmanouverable. It's only after 750km/h or so when it starts to get really stiff and you have to use trim to pull of ouf dive for example.

 

4. Once K4 run out of MW 50 or are forced to take break of using it, it's not that much different to say G14 performance wise for example. Without MW50, p-51 will be faster.

 

If Mustang pilot however starts to turn with 109 under 500km/h or try to climb away and there is skilled pilot in 109, then he is screwed. Just like in real life...