aimmaverick Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 All of you guys are arguing about Mig-29, Su-27, Eurofighter... But could it be that actually Mirage 2000-5 is the most manouverable fighter? I found this link http://www.mirage-jet.com and it is stated that it could do 13.5g!!!! It could be true, in Lockon no plane is able to compete with it guns only and videos i have seen about it suggest awesome responsivness and agility so what do you think? Anyone got flight manual? Remember back when Lomac demo was released and people complained that there just isnt the way to win the dogfight. (Mig-29 vs Mirage) They tought it was some sort of ultimative cheating AI or something.
Crusty Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Well, Ill guess that its instantaneous turn rate is very high, but its sustained turn rate not so good, thats the classic delta characteristic (high energy bleed at high alpha),...power to weight ratio comes into it as well. As for g numbers..same scenario, are you talking instantaneous or sustained g?..I imagine thats a figure for instantaneous G, but I dont know any numbers oo err...missus:animals_bunny: ** Anti-Pastie**
Force_Feedback Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 I agree totally, the Mirage-2000 in one hell of an aerobatic bird, the airshows I've seen on tape featuring it were way better than those of the F-16, F-15, F-18 (except the low-speed pass), Su-27vanilla, mig-29 without tvc, and others. The corners are just insane, especially the speeds they're taken at, wow. I also believe it has an AoA of 30 degrees, which makes low speed manoeuvres very nice, very unlike the boring F-16. Too bad I've never seen the M-2000 flying in real life. Man, the simplified FM you get with the humancocpit=yes may be realistic after all :p the 13.5G is the structual limit (not breaking point), but only for emergencies, 11 is sustained (like the 9g limit on the F-16 scooter). Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
D-Scythe Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Um, what? You guys do realize that delta wings impose some penalty in sustained turn rate right? But yeah, instantaneous the M2000 is for sure up there. BTW, 13.5Gs means nothing. The pilot will black out well before then. IMO, the most maneuverable non-TVC fighter is the Su-35-something-something, whatever crazy designation the Russians gave it or the Raptor. All TVC fighters can do everything it can without TVC as it can without, with the new FBW stuff coming out.
Guest IguanaKing Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Although its not a fighter...the A-10 is pretty damned impressive in aerobatics demonstrations. :D
Kula66 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 BTW, 13.5Gs means nothing. The pilot will black out well before then. Yep ... there is that great vid of a Mirage pilot doing just that ... and the guy in the back going ape to try and get him back on track ... manages to pull out at VERY low-level!!!
cool_t Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Ahhh guns only? :horseback F-15c, ive pinched many migs with them. COBRA any 1? cool t
Guest IguanaKing Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Yep ... there is that great vid of a Mirage pilot doing just that ... and the guy in the back going ape to try and get him back on track ... manages to pull out at VERY low-level!!! 13.5 sustained? Where is that video? Let's just say I have my doubts. ;)
Force_Feedback Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Now the trolling begins. You trolls are evil, go back to denmark* and find a bigger rock! *= no pun intended towards people actually coming from Denmark and trolling :p The mirage is uber, and it may probably be not as agile as fighters with canards, it certainly is the most agile "jet fighter" without canards or tvc. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
Crusty Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 A bit off topic perhaps and almost certainly a long shot, but as we are talking fighter dynamics, does anyone know where to find centre of gravity and centre of pressure data for any of the inherently unstable modern fighters?, I have long wondered just how far these divergent designs are taken oo err...missus:animals_bunny: ** Anti-Pastie**
Hawg11 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 I'm not sure if the mirage uses it, but it's reported that using a waterfilled G-suit, pilots are able to sustain 11 G's as though they were 9G's. Dave "Hawg11" St. Jean
Kula66 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 13.5 sustained? Where is that video? Let's just say I have my doubts. ;) No not 13 sustained ... he pulled G (can't remember how much) and blacked out ... then you here the guy in the back going bonkers as the y dive towards the ground ...
peterj Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Some new fourth gen fighters should outperform it, Like Rafale; better thrust to weight ratio, unstable canard design, great energy preservance. However the Russian put of the best show with instantainious turn rates and probably less restrictive control systems. Also they push their fighters while the european are held short at displays. Kula66, this one? http://www.patricksaviation.com/aviation_videos/180/Mirage_2000D_-_Close_Call?go=download
Guest IguanaKing Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 No not 13 sustained ... he pulled G (can't remember how much) and blacked out ... then you here the guy in the back going bonkers as the y dive towards the ground ... I have heard the same from an F-16D student and instructor. The ability to make a student black out doesn't necessarily mean superior maneuverability. ;)
D-Scythe Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 No The mirage is uber, and it may probably be not as agile as fighters with canards, it certainly is the most agile "jet fighter" without canards or tvc. IMO, you'd be wrong about that. The only thing the M2000 does exceptionally well is instantaneous turn rate. It's pretty good at everything else, but is by no means uber. I know for a fact that an F-16A or a Block 50+ F-16C would perform equally well if not better than the M2000. An F/A-18, MiG-29 or even an F-15 would also have a clear advantage at lower speeds. There are trade-offs with the delta wing ;)
51GRIZZLY Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 I would say the SU 37 outperforms them all with its fully integrated thrust vector control system. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su37/
GGTharos Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 He said non-TVC. ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
warthogmadman987 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 sorry, kind of a noobie question. But considering I am young and learning... What is a Thrust vectoring system? I just have never been able to find out, or really cared until now.
GGTharos Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Steerable exhaust nozzles. That's all it is. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 sorry, kind of a noobie question. But considering I am young and learning... What is a Thrust vectoring system? I just have never been able to find out, or really cared until now. Have a look at the back of the F-22 Raptor (2D nozzles) and the Su-37 (3D) ... there's a great vid of the Flanker around somehwere taken looking back between the engines and you can see the things moving around - great engineering. 1
Kula66 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Kula66, this one? http://www.patricksaviation.com/aviation_videos/180/Mirage_2000D_-_Close_Call?go=download Thats the one - thanks ... I don't remember what the alt reading is when they pull out ... but it was a very close call! Area trouser filling moment :(
Silent Warrior Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Hm... What about the JAS-39? A tiny little thing like that must be a fluttery bugger. *Digs* Let's see... Well, I'm too lazy at the moment to look up its official homepage, but the swedish military says it can pull up to 9Gs. And going from 1 to 9 can be done in as little as 1.2 seconds. There was also talk about good fuel-economy, though I won't be the one to comment on what that might mean for sustained turn-rates.
D-Scythe Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Hm... What about the JAS-39? A tiny little thing like that must be a fluttery bugger. *Digs* Let's see... Well, I'm too lazy at the moment to look up its official homepage, but the swedish military says it can pull up to 9Gs. And going from 1 to 9 can be done in as little as 1.2 seconds. There was also talk about good fuel-economy, though I won't be the one to comment on what that might mean for sustained turn-rates. No pilot in the world can go 1 to 9 Gs in 1.2 without blacking out almost immediately. In fact, can anyone say G-LOC? Keep in mind, most of the stuff people advertise is purely useless. Other examples include the 14 AAMs the Super Hornet can carry, or the F-15 going Mach 2.5+, or the Eurofighter being capable of accomplishing 91% of what the F-22 can. People just like to blow their horns.
Kula66 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 I'm no aero-dynamics expert, but I would think low t/w ratio would mean you couldn't sustain a high turn rate - given a similar design. The Mirages delta design means it would have trouble with sustained rate because it beeds energy quickly. The max G rating of modern fighters is almost aways 9G ... I don't hink it means anything. The airframes will withstand more ... but the pilots will struggle.
Hawg11 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 More about the liquid filled G-suit... http://www.michaelbehar.com/scientific/defying_03_02.html http://www.autofluglibelle.com/html/statements.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-suit "As the pilot is subjected to G-forces, the liquid is pushed down to the pilot's leg by the same G-force. The result is a much faster response than the pneumatic version. Preliminary testing shows that pilot wearing the Libelle G-suit can withstand a force of 10G with ease while the same pilot can barely withstand 9G wearing a regular G-suit. 'Libelle' is the German word for dragonfly, the inspiration for the idea." Dave "Hawg11" St. Jean
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