Smokey SAM

[Snoopy]

With NTTR on the horizon would be nice to have these included to simulate SAM launches during Red Flag exercises.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTR-18_Smokey_Sam

 

http://www.denix.osd.mil/sri/upload/SRR2012-Chapter3-2-4.pdf

 

 

[NineLine]

Simulate simulated SAMs :P Is that like imagining my imaginary friend having an imaginary friend? :)

[PiedDroit]

IMMORTAL [v]

[Snoopy]

Simulate simulated SAMs :P Is that like imagining my imaginary friend having an imaginary friend? :)

 

Realistic training requires realistic training munitions, we already have BDU-33s and other training munitions this would just add to the realism and are used in Red Flag. Not to mention the last time I was at Grand Bay Range (at Moody) I got to watch them used and my pilots practicing techniques to evade.

 

I've heard the same "argument" about using training munitions in a simulator, I want realism and this would add more even IMO.

 

IMMORTAL [v]

 

How does that add to realistic training?

[NineLine]

But for training munitions dont you need to have a system that tells if its a hit and other stats, etc etc? That is a serious question, not being standoffish...

[Snoopy]

But for training munitions dont you need to have a system that tells if its a hit and other stats, etc etc? That is a serious question, not being standoffish...

 

Combined arms JTAC acting as a range officer or a script telling you hit distance and location. All already possible and done within the 476th.

 

Smokey SAMs aren't a hit or miss object, if you read either of the links I posted it explains exactly what they are and what they are used for.

[Scooternutz]

Smokey SAM Simulators! Used to deploy those at B17 at NAS Fallon. Been 16 years since I thought of them.

[karambiatos]

Seems to me if they could fire actual stingers at planes they'd do that instead of somkey sams.

[Coolhand-476th]

With NTTR on the horizon would be nice to have these included to simulate SAM launches during Red Flag exercises.

 

That would be cool.

[Snoopy]

Seems to me if they could fire actual stingers at planes they'd do that instead of somkey sams.

 

 

Some people just don't get it.

[karambiatos]

Some people just don't get it.

I do get it, I don't see the use of it though.

 

But the more stuff the better right?

[Snoopy]

I do get it, I don't see the use of it though.

 

But the more stuff the better right?

 

The use of it is realistic training. But how I and the members of the 476th vFG enjoy the sim is obviously very different than most of the DCS community.

 

We want to use NTTR for what it is used for real world, this is a wish list section of the forums and I posted a "wish" so we could accomplish training in a realistic way same as real pilots do.

 

And I quote (from our homepage)

 

"We are an international organization, our goal is to continuously learn and refine our skills while enjoying these simulators in a multiplayer environment incorporating realistic tactics and procedures."

 

This includes mirroring real world training and the tools used for training...aka Smokey SAMS.

[PFunk1606688187]

Its a pretty useful tool in and of itself for just practicing recognition of launch and following into the correct pilot response in relation to the aspect of the threat.

 

If all you wanted to practice was two pilots flying in tactical formation doing X, Y, Z normal ops in addition to keeping eyes out for MANPAD launches and committing to the correct course of action as well as communicating it then it'd be a great tool. Lethality is not always beneficial in training if it fractures the on going process.

 

Not all practice works well in the context of immortality and just flying into a single purpose mission area with no goal except to practice a single thing in isolation. Thats useful for its own purposes but its also not terribly realistic on the whole. Practicing elements in context has great value. For instance if we had fragmentation effects actually modeled then BDU-33s have great value since you can screw up, fly through your own frag pattern, still make several more passes, get told how you messed up later on, and in the process of the flight still practice and learn other things instead of taking damage and having to respawn.

 

Certainly there are some real life limitations that the sim could take to another level. With scripting you could have all SAMs with versions that have inert warheads and self destruction before getting too close to the target aircraft to preserve the non lethal element while offering something they don't get in real life which is practicing actual evasion against a seeking missile, however to me that seems like it would take more work than just a Smokey Sam that fires in a given direction for a given time to a given alt when within a given range. I imagine it would most logically be doable with a rewrite of the MANPAD scripts with perhaps tweakable variables to emulate different things.

 

I like the suggestion. Its got great value to people who fly the sim more realistically. (everyone should have the chance to fly the sim their way, right?)

[GGTharos]

Will the flare launcher work as a substitute?

[rcjonessnp175]

I've never found it wise policy to not listen to those with real world experience. What snoopy is suggesting is bringing a real world aspect to military training to this Military aircraft simulator. I and many welcome the small and bigger details and it only helps having those that have served in the "Nevada" area. Will only enhance what looks to be a most epic map

[Grimes]

Certainly there are some real life limitations that the sim could take to another level. With scripting you could have all SAMs with versions that have inert warheads and self destruction before getting too close to the target aircraft to preserve the non lethal element while offering something they don't get in real life which is practicing actual evasion against a seeking missile, however to me that seems like it would take more work than just a Smokey Sam that fires in a given direction for a given time to a given alt when within a given range. I imagine it would most logically be doable with a rewrite of the MANPAD scripts with perhaps tweakable variables to emulate different things.

 

 

 

Or you know, just remove the missile from the simulator if it gets to close to a target. This way we can have telephone pole sized smokey sams coming right at ya! Thats way more entertaining than those Estes Rockets from the wishlist item. :music_whistling:

 

 

do
local remove_missile_method = 1
-- 0 will create an explosion
-- 1 will use Object.destroy() which simply makes the missile disappear.

local removalDist = 100
-- distance in meters from the center of the target the missile will get removed from the sim. Lower number == higher pucker factor.

local aiMissiles = {}
local numActive = 0
local uid = 1
local idNum = 1
local function simpleEvent(f) -- from mist
	local handler = {}
	idNum = idNum + 1
	handler.id = idNum
	handler.f = f
	handler.onEvent = function(self, event)
		self.f(event)
	end
	world.addEventHandler(handler)
end

getMag = function(vec) -- from mist
	return (vec.x^2 + vec.y^2 + vec.z^2)^0.5
end

get3DDist = function(point1, point2)
	return getMag({x = point1.x - point2.x, y = point1.y - point2.y, z = point1.z - point2.z})
end

local function removeMis(id)
	if Object.isExist(aiMissiles[id].missile) then -- if missile is still active and needs to be destroyed
		if Weapon.getTarget(aiMissiles[id].missile) == aiMissiles[id].origTarg and Unit.getPlayerName(aiMissiles[id].origTarg) then
			trigger.action.outText(Unit.getPlayerName(aiMissiles[id].origTarg) .. ' has been hit by a simulated missile. You should eject in shame.', 20)
		end
		if remove_missile_method == 0 then
			trigger.action.explosion(Object.getPosition(aiMissiles[id].missile).p, 5)
		else
			Object.destroy(aiMissiles[id].missile)
		end
	end
	aiMissiles[id] = nil
	numActive = numActive - 1
	
	return
end
local function checkMis(mis)
	local tot = 0
	
	if Object.isExist(mis.missile) == false then
		removeMis(mis.uid)
	else
		if Object.isExist(mis.origTarg) == true then
			local misVel = getMag(Object.getVelocity(mis.missile))
			local targVel = getMag(Object.getVelocity(mis.origTarg))
			local dist = get3DDist(Object.getPoint(mis.missile), Object.getPoint(mis.origTarg))
			if dist < removalDist then -- if its close and still guiding
				removeMis(mis.uid)
			else
				tot = dist/(misVel*2)
				timer.scheduleFunction(checkMis, mis, timer.getTime() + tot)
			end
		end		
	end
	
	
end


local function aiShot(event)
	
	if event.id == world.event.S_EVENT_SHOT and event.initiator and not Unit.getPlayerName(event.initiator) then -- if AI
		if event.weapon and Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory and (Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory == 2 or Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory == 1) then
			local newMis = {}
			newMis.launchTime = timer.getTime()
			newMis.uid = uid
			newMis.missile = event.weapon
			newMis.origTarg = Weapon.getTarget(event.weapon)
			newMis.lostTrack = false
			aiMissiles[uid] = newMis
			uid = uid + 1
			numActive = numActive + 1
			
			timer.scheduleFunction(checkMis, newMis, timer.getTime() + 4)
		end			
	end		
end
simpleEvent(aiShot)

env.info('Training Sams by Grimes Loaded')
-- or diaper recommended Smokey Sams
end

 

[PiedDroit]

Realistic training requires realistic training munitions, we already have BDU-33s and other training munitions this would just add to the realism and are used in Red Flag. Not to mention the last time I was at Grand Bay Range (at Moody) I got to watch them used and my pilots practicing techniques to evade.

 

I've heard the same "argument" about using training munitions in a simulator, I want realism and this would add more even IMO.

 

How does that add to realistic training?

I fail to see a dramatic difference between a simulated simulated missile and a simulated missile that won't damage you, please enlighten me.

You can use you imagination, no? The tacview at the end will still be the same and nobody will blame you to have used the immortal mode.

I get the difference, but IMO the developpers have much more important stuff to chew on right now.

[Snoopy]

Why are people arguing with me in a Wish List thread? What's the point of a wish list if people get attacked for the idea of wanting real training aids added?

[NineLine]

Seems like it might be a fairly easy mod to make, you could make a custom 'round/missile' and launcher, have the model made, dunno... seems pretty easy for a 3rd party to do, I would love to see different training aids (although many could be fudged in the sim already).

[PiedDroit]

Why are people arguing with me in a Wish List thread? What's the point of a wish list if people get attacked for the idea of wanting real training aids added?

 

I'm really sorry you took it that way, please let me rephrase:

 

There is a very small amount of people looking for the realistic training experience you describe.

While having the smokey SAM would certainly be cool, it's unlikely that resources will be diverted to it's development right now.

While it's not on top of my personal wishlist I understand your wish and I kindly offer you a temporary solution.

Fortunately you can achieve a similar experience by using the in-game option "immortal" that will allow you to train like the pros.

If you accept no substitute I would understand (just as I will never fly a reskinned F-15 that looks like a F/A-18C).

 

So when you ask "How does that add to realistic training?", please take no offence when people try to help you.

 

Good training,

P

[Snoopy]

It's not high in my priority list either, just something I thought about the other day and has been discussed by multiple other people I've come across who has real world experience.

 

 

Or you know, just remove the missile from the simulator if it gets to close to a target. This way we can have telephone pole sized smokey sams coming right at ya! Thats way more entertaining than those Estes Rockets from the wishlist item. :music_whistling:

 

 

 

 

do

local remove_missile_method = 1

-- 0 will create an explosion

-- 1 will use Object.destroy() which simply makes the missile disappear.



local removalDist = 100

-- distance in meters from the center of the target the missile will get removed from the sim. Lower number == higher pucker factor.



local aiMissiles = {}

local numActive = 0

local uid = 1

local idNum = 1

local function simpleEvent(f) -- from mist

local handler = {}

idNum = idNum + 1

handler.id = idNum

handler.f = f

handler.onEvent = function(self, event)

self.f(event)

end

world.addEventHandler(handler)

end



getMag = function(vec) -- from mist

return (vec.x^2 + vec.y^2 + vec.z^2)^0.5

end



get3DDist = function(point1, point2)

return getMag({x = point1.x - point2.x, y = point1.y - point2.y, z = point1.z - point2.z})

end



local function removeMis(id)

if Object.isExist(aiMissiles[id].missile) then -- if missile is still active and needs to be destroyed

if Weapon.getTarget(aiMissiles[id].missile) == aiMissiles[id].origTarg and Unit.getPlayerName(aiMissiles[id].origTarg) then

trigger.action.outText(Unit.getPlayerName(aiMissiles[id].origTarg) .. ' has been hit by a simulated missile. You should eject in shame.', 20)

end

if remove_missile_method == 0 then

trigger.action.explosion(Object.getPosition(aiMissiles[id].missile).p, 5)

else

Object.destroy(aiMissiles[id].missile)

end

end

aiMissiles[id] = nil

numActive = numActive - 1



return

end

local function checkMis(mis)

local tot = 0



if Object.isExist(mis.missile) == false then

removeMis(mis.uid)

else

if Object.isExist(mis.origTarg) == true then

local misVel = getMag(Object.getVelocity(mis.missile))

local targVel = getMag(Object.getVelocity(mis.origTarg))

local dist = get3DDist(Object.getPoint(mis.missile), Object.getPoint(mis.origTarg))

if dist < removalDist then -- if its close and still guiding

removeMis(mis.uid)

else

tot = dist/(misVel*2)

timer.scheduleFunction(checkMis, mis, timer.getTime() + tot)

end

end

end





end





local function aiShot(event)



if event.id == world.event.S_EVENT_SHOT and event.initiator and not Unit.getPlayerName(event.initiator) then -- if AI

if event.weapon and Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory and (Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory == 2 or Weapon.getDesc(event.weapon).missileCategory == 1) then

local newMis = {}

newMis.launchTime = timer.getTime()

newMis.uid = uid

newMis.missile = event.weapon

newMis.origTarg = Weapon.getTarget(event.weapon)

newMis.lostTrack = false

aiMissiles[uid] = newMis

uid = uid + 1

numActive = numActive + 1



timer.scheduleFunction(checkMis, newMis, timer.getTime() + 4)

end

end

end

simpleEvent(aiShot)



env.info('Training Sams by Grimes Loaded')

-- or diaper recommended Smokey Sams

end

 

 

Thanks Grimes, reading the script made my head hurt ;) but this hopefully meets my desire.

 

 

Seems like it might be a fairly easy mod to make, you could make a custom 'round/missile' and launcher, have the model made, dunno... seems pretty easy for a 3rd party to do, I would love to see different training aids (although many could be fudged in the sim already).

 

 

If I had the 3d modeling experience I'd gladly do it. But I don't. But hopefully like I said above The script Grimes shared should offer what I'm looking to simulate.

[PFunk1606688187]

When I wrote lists of things I wanted for Christmas it was understood that my daddy (and mommy, progressive family right?) couldn't afford the man hours to pay for them all.

 

However, by making the list known maybe my mommy (or Grimes in this case) might find something else that'd at least somewhat gimme close to what I wanted.

 

Thanks mommy, err... Grimes.

[Dojo]

From now on, I vote we call Grimes Mommy. Rep inbound.

[Bunyap]

That sounds like a great idea to me! I drop the heck out of BDU-33s and BDU-50s so this sort of thing would be a great addition.

 

I had one up and running for the Strike Fighters Range Terrain way back when and the model (.max) is attached if anybody wants it. Unfortunately, it is just the Smokey SAM itself and not the launcher...

GTR-18A Smokey SAM.zip