What missile?

[Arcto10]

Hey guys,

 

Quick confirmation on using missiles and what not in the 15!

 

1. When against an SU 27 going head on level flight they always get a launch off before my 120's (tried all variants) even get a first lock (Cannot remember terminology, but it is the lock zone that only guarantees a hit if the target does not maneuver). From what I understand this is a bug (<10NM range on slammers in DCS). What I usually do is wait until I can get a lock, fire 1 or 2 slammers then break 90 degrees and dive hard dropping chaff/flare. Their missile always hits me, mine never hits them. What is best practice here?

 

2. I am pretty sure I do not need to...but...Do I need to keep the target in my lock zone until the missile detonates? I am pretty sure I do not....but said I would check anyway...(This is for Slammers, Sidewinders and Sparrows?)

 

Cheers!

[EngineerFalcon]

It's not a bug, the R-27ER on the Sukhoi has a slightly longer range than the 120. But it is semi-active, so he has to maintain lock to hit, while the 120 is active-radar guided, meaning that when it is at a certain distance from target it will "go pittbull", meaning you can break lock and it will track on its own - I don't fly the F-15, but there should be a countdown on your HUD to tell you when it goes active. The Sidewinder is infrared, so it is autonomous as soon as it leaves the rail. The Sparrow, though, is also semi-active.

 

As for you getting shot down : Are you cranking ? Meaning putting the bandit at the very edge of your radar cone. That way he has to travel further to reach you. Being at high speeds when launching your missiles can help increase range and Pk too.

For missile avoidance : You have to keep the missile on your 3/9 o'clock. Meaning simply turning 90° won't do, you have to follow it on your Radar Warning Receiver and make it waste all of its energy by turning into it. Also don't waste your flares on radar-guided missiles, drop some chaff when you detect a launch, then do it again before turning harder or diving.

I'd also recommend installing TacView to review your flights, that is a great help.

[Arcto10]

Thanks for the info!

 

Can you explain cranking a bit more? I thought going low then bursting high would bleed more missile energy as well? Maybe this is why I have such a low dodge rate! Then again optically tracked is harder to dodge, correct?

 

EDIT: Is this what you mean?

 

Beaming is putting a missile, or SAM, on your 3 oclock or 9 oclock position (to either side of your aircraft). The idea is to try to keep it there. By doing this, you are forcing that missile to make constant adjustments in direction in order to chase you down. Over time, this bleeds (or runs) out energy from that missile, and it slowly falls behind your aircraft the closer it gets to you.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Arcto10

[Mar]

You should be able to lock the target long before you can shoot a missile unless you're at high altitude and he has his jammer on. If that is the case in your example the only answe I can give you is the AI cheats.

 

To hit them just make sure you're close enough, and do more than just dive to avoid being hit yourself. Keep changing direction and pulling Gs. But if you're up really high, split s, snake away, dump chaff, and pray. Hopefully someone else will have some better ideas for you.

 

You do need the keep a hard lock on the target for sparrows except for flood mode; aim-9s are heat seekers, a radar lock is only used for range info and telling the heater where to look; the slammer needs radar guidance until it gets close enough to lock on with its own radar, that should happen when the timer on the bottom left of your HUD switches from a t to an m, after that it won't care what you are looking at and go after the closest target in its radar cone, so be careful when friendlies are around.

 

Lol took 2 posts to type that on my phone. Like falcon said cranking is turning as far as you can while keeping the target in your radar, afraid I don't have time to explain further, good luck.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Mar

[EngineerFalcon]

Thanks for the info!

 

Can you explain cranking a bit more? I thought going low then bursting high would bleed more missile energy as well? Maybe this is why I have such a low dodge rate! Then again optically tracked is harder to dodge, correct?

 

EDIT: Is this what you mean?

 

Beaming is putting a missile, or SAM, on your 3 oclock or 9 oclock position (to either side of your aircraft). The idea is to try to keep it there. By doing this, you are forcing that missile to make constant adjustments in direction in order to chase you down. Over time, this bleeds (or runs) out energy from that missile, and it slowly falls behind your aircraft the closer it gets to you.

 

That's exactly it on beaming.

Cranking is used after firing a missile since you keep guiding it while reducing closure rate.

"Notching" means beaming and going low, it can help break a lock (your aircraft gets filtered out as ground clutter).

But if you are at long range then snaking can be a good thing, just avoid vertical maneuvers as they bleed a lot of speed.

 

By optically guided do you mean like the Maverick ? Then yes those are hard to defeat since there's no countermeasures for them. There aren't any in DCS though.

If you mean heatseekers then those aren't much harder to defeat, but there's no launch warning for them. Since they're made for close combat they're also usually more agile.

[blkspade]

While you don't need flares versus radar guided missiles, any flanker pilot worth his salt inside of 10nm is going to be following up with an ET anyway. Doubly true if you go defensive with AB. Ideally launching 120s from an advantageous position would force the flanker defensive when they go active, leaving the ER dead. They can continue trying to guide the ER just to take the 120 in the face, also leaving the ER dead. If you are talking about AI flankers, they will always ditch the ER to evade. Humans not so much. If you are jamming however, semi-actives have a habit of continuing to guide on the jammer by themselves.

[Danmon]

The highest and the fastest you are, the longer the range of your missiles. The angle of your target matters too.

 

Against su27 AI anyway it's really easy to win in a head vs head.

 

When you launch the 120 in your HUD (bottom) will appear a timer. At first you'll see the letter "T" followed by a number, wich is the seconds until the missile will start to track the target with his own radar.

 

Once the missile starts to track the target on his own, the T will become a M, followed by the number of seconds until the expected hit.

 

The smaller the distance between you and your target, the faster the T will become M. At very short distance the missile is active as soon as you launch it and you'll see only the M.

 

So the best way is to track the target with your radar until the T becomes an M. Once the T becomes an M you can break the lock.

 

If you break the lock before T expires, then the missile will turn on its radar and lock the nearest target.

 

If the AI shoots at you before the T becomes M, you can turn left or right until the target is at the very edge of your radar cone. If it shoots after the T becomes M, then you can crank even more, becouse you dont' need to keep tracking the target.

 

Anyway, when they shoot from far (i mean the AI... not humans) you can just slow down and keep going straight... the 120 will be active (the T will be M) before the 27 will reach you. Once the 120 is active infact the target will engage defensive and break the lock on you... so the 27 will go balistic.

 

A human will be smart enough to go defensive without breaking the lock...

 

I suggest you to read the manual anyway. There you'll find the basics.

[Arcto10]

Here's what I am doing:

 

Press I

Press 2

Look for target

Lock target

Wait for launch tone

Launch

Missile is terminal straight away and I do not get launch tone above 8.5nm ish.

 

I attached a trk!

 

EDIT: So what I am asking is, why am I only getting launch tone at such a short range? Seems it is not BVR at all!

BVR FAIL.trk

Edited March 15, 2015 by Arcto10

[Arcto10]

Any idea guys?

 

Should I not be able to fire BVR at over 8.5nm with an AIM 120?

[Danmon]

Arcto10, it's ok.

 

When the target is flying away from you (it's "cold") the range is DRASTICALLY reduced.

 

Try to go higher and faster if you want or need more range.

I took control of your track and manage to shoot at 14nm going higher and faster.

 

You'll see the longest range VS a hot target (flying toward you), high speed, high altitude.

[Frostie]

Any idea guys?

 

Should I not be able to fire BVR at over 8.5nm with an AIM 120?

 

Yes you should be able to easily, though just because you can doesn't mean you will make the kill. The closer you fire the more energy the missile will have to intercept a defending target.

[Ironhand]

Any idea guys?

 

Should I not be able to fire BVR at over 8.5nm with an AIM 120?

Had a few minutes to download and watch your track. As Danmon noted, what happened is probably fairly close to correct given the situation. Launch range varies greatly depending on the dynamics of the situation.

[Stuge]

And with theses logics, one may realize the best missile defense for most BVR shots:

 

Full afterburner, turn back (not beam), go low, and do high g snaking if necessary while running away. Snake FTW :D

 

Beaming is highly overrated. It doesn't bleed as much missile energy as running away, and even if the evasion succeeds, your attacker easily comes closer for a far more dangerous follow up close range shot.