F-14 low speed prowess vs Other Aircraft

[captain_dalan]

For which plane and for which station? E.g. on the F-15's, both can be carried under the wings using the same pylon so it's probably not the pylon? Maybe due to the blunt seeker head of the Sidewinder (vs the thicker, but more aerodynamic AMRAAM I guess but I'm no aerodynamics expert)?

In example, for the Viper. And they were supposed to go in the same pylon, minus the adapters.

 

 

The sharper nose on the MRM's should help with drag at high speeds, perhaps having the wings on the missiles further back as well.

 

Could be, maybe the entire missile is just more aerodynamic as it is made to go faster anyway?

[GGTharos]

For the missile itself, the dome drives the drag. Heaters will thus typically be draggier. The sidewinder also had those gigantic wings on the tail with their rollerons. The pylon matters also - amraam DI is different on a pylon vs a conformal station for example.

[SandMartin]

I hope that the F-14's prowess in low speed turning will be modelled by leatherneck.

 

Could do a full 360 min radius turn in under 20 sec at sea level, setting the record at Abbotsford in 1986.

 

 

The F-14 might have had a slow roll, but it would turn & burn better than most.

 

Is this sustained turn ? Im not sure..

[captain_dalan]

Is this sustained turn ? Im not sure..

 

You can never tell with airshow performances.

 

However, ASL 53800 lbs heavy F-14A (4+4 A-A and 60% internal fuel) should be able to sustain an 18 deg/s sustained turn at 5.5g or so.

[Hummingbird]

You can never tell with airshow performances.

 

However, ASL 53800 lbs heavy F-14A (4+4 A-A and 60% internal fuel) should be able to sustain an 18 deg/s sustained turn at 5.5g or so.

 

Yeah, and the F-14D around 18.2 deg/sec.

 

You'd be hard pressed to turn with 'the wing' below mach 0.7 :)

 

[SandMartin]

Yeah, and the F-14D around 18.2 deg/sec.

 

You'd be hard pressed to turn with 'the wing' below mach 0.7 :)

 

 

What about turn rates of other 4 gen fighters? I heard F-16 have 23deg\sec

[captain_dalan]

What about turn rates of other 4 gen fighters? I heard F-16 have 23deg\sec

 

Depends really. Too many difierent fuel quantities, weapon loads, engine variations. That 23 deg/s i.e. looks like a clean Viper with maybe 2 Mikes on the tips. Possibly at half internal fuel and down ASL?

[Hummingbird]

What about turn rates of other 4 gen fighters? I heard F-16 have 23deg\sec

 

Provided some max sustained G measurements earlier which are what the turn rates are based on, but here's a recap:

 

F-14D @ 55,620 lbs (50% fuel) w/ 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9's @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = 1.2

0.3 = 1.95

0.4 = 2.95

0.5 = 4.0

0.6 = 5.0

0.7 = 5.3

0.75 = 5.6

 

F-16C @ 26,000 lbs w/ 2x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-120's + 2x FT pylons @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = CAT limited

0.3 = 1.8

0.4 = 2.7

0.5 = 3.55

0.6 = 4.5

0.7 = 5.5

0.75 = 6.0

 

F-15C @ 41,000 lbs (50% fuel), w/ 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9s @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = 1.0

0.3 = 1.8

0.4 = 2.6

0.5 = 3.4

0.6 = 4.3

0.7 = 5.25

0.75 = 5.7

[HairyPOOnuggets]

And they said we'd never use math in after school

 

 

Provided some max sustained G measurements earlier which are what the turn rates are based on, but here's a recap:

 

F-14D @ 55,620 lbs (50% fuel) w/ 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9's @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = 1.2

0.3 = 1.95

0.4 = 2.95

0.5 = 4.0

0.6 = 5.0

0.7 = 5.3

0.75 = 5.6

 

F-16C @ 26,000 lbs w/ 2x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-120's + 2x FT pylons @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = CAT limited

0.3 = 1.8

0.4 = 2.7

0.5 = 3.55

0.6 = 4.5

0.7 = 5.5

0.75 = 6.0

 

F-15C @ 41,000 lbs (50% fuel), w/ 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9s @ 10,000 ft:

Mach = G-load

0.2 = 1.0

0.3 = 1.8

0.4 = 2.6

0.5 = 3.4

0.6 = 4.3

0.7 = 5.25

0.75 = 5.7

[captain_dalan]

LOL! :megalol:

[captain_dalan]

I hope you guys won't take it against me if i revive this thread. I have some input for potential future aviators.

 

You see, i've been flying the Aerosoft model for the FSX and the TMF model for SF2 lately, with the performance manuals on me knees. Mostly the Alphas, as usual. And yes, they do fly well when slow (not as well as Flankers or Bugs.... after all the Cat is more then a handful to handle when very slow), but i have some big news for you..... You know what these babies want more then going slow? Going fast!

 

Believe, it's actually all in the Ps charts. I've been keeping it at 410-550 knots and as long as we go gunzo, i chew Flankers up of supper. Remember that post GGT made some time ago, about the Eagle completing a full 360 in less time then the best sustained would imply, if you have the right technique? Well it's valid for the Cat too...... it's actually valid for all fighters. Forget he Ps=0, check out you bleed and recovery rates! Your best turns aren't always highlighted! And by God is this thing stable when fast! No dutch rolls, no buffets and yeah.... no compressor stalls! :D

[jcdata]

Guys, the aerodynamics do not change when you change the engine... Engine affects are STR and climb... Never ITR

 

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[LJQCN101]

Or a chart with the same config as Hummingbird's data.

 

[Top Jockey]

I hope you guys won't take it against me if i revive this thread. I have some input for potential future aviators.

 

You see, i've been flying the Aerosoft model for the FSX and the TMF model for SF2 lately, with the performance manuals on me knees. Mostly the Alphas, as usual. And yes, they do fly well when slow (not as well as Flankers or Bugs.... after all the Cat is more then a handful to handle when very slow), but i have some big news for you..... You know what these babies want more then going slow? Going fast!

 

Believe, it's actually all in the Ps charts. I've been keeping it at 410-550 knots and as long as we go gunzo, i chew Flankers up of supper. Remember that post GGT made some time ago, about the Eagle completing a full 360 in less time then the best sustained would imply, if you have the right technique? Well it's valid for the Cat too...... it's actually valid for all fighters. Forget he Ps=0, check out you bleed and recovery rates! Your best turns aren't always highlighted! And by God is this thing stable when fast! No dutch rolls, no buffets and yeah.... no compressor stalls! :D

 

Hello Captain Dalan,

 

But how can you maintain turns/maneuvers at those speeds, without the "pilot" constantly entering in black out?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Top Jockey

[captain_dalan]

Hello Captain Dalan,

 

But how can you maintain turns/maneuvers at those speeds, without the "pilot" constantly entering in black out?

 

You don't. At least you don't maintain them. You load your turn and bleed until you pass the point at which your bird recovers its energy the best and then unload, until you are at the other side of the curve again. Thus your turns are a mix of loaded and unloaded cycles. You use your time during the unloaded cycle to recover some of that blood back into your brain. Some blackout is bound to occur but it will depend largely on the altitude you are fighting at, your AC bleed and recover rates and your timing. So even though your g may peek at over 8.5 or 9 at times, you still spend a good deal of time bellow 5.5 or 6. The average turning rate will still be better then the best sustained. Sometimes as much as 2-3 seconds better. This is all of a tail chase scenario though. If you go nose to nose, one circle, then bleed away..... i try to avoid those against Hornets and Flankers though....

 

P.S. Sorry for the late reply. I am seldom online these days.

 

P.P.S. Experiment with your bird. If you don't have the full Ps charts for the plane you fly with, try and using your acceleration rates as a rough indicator for your best energy recovery envelope range (though this won't take into the account the induced drag from the alpha buildup).

[turkeydriver]

So-like the crews have stated- the turkey's territory is Mach 0.5-0.7. Of course if you're a hornet, they live there too, but don't sustain energy like a turkey. I don't how you do it, but if you can live through 3-4 turns with a hornet you might be OK(with weapons, not a clean bug-that's cheating)

[Tirak]

So-like the crews have stated- the turkey's territory is Mach 0.5-0.7. Of course if you're a hornet, they live there too, but don't sustain energy like a turkey. I don't how you do it, but if you can live through 3-4 turns with a hornet you might be OK(with weapons, not a clean bug-that's cheating)

 

Depends on his armament. Sure the Hornet turns sharply, but he won't even last 3 or 4 turns if he pulls his full controllable AoA. If he's got missiles, a snapshot is good enough, but guns, that's a much harder proposition.

[captain_dalan]

Yep, surviving through the merge and the initial couple of circles is half the work. You need to avoid scissors at all cost. Work the vertical, but not in a way that will telegraph your intent. Wait until you are bellow his horizon before you make that move. But keep your energy up as long as possible. Most importantly, keep it where you can regain it.

[Top Jockey]

You don't. At least you don't maintain them. You load your turn and bleed until you pass the point at which your bird recovers its energy the best and then unload, until you are at the other side of the curve again. Thus your turns are a mix of loaded and unloaded cycles. You use your time during the unloaded cycle to recover some of that blood back into your brain. Some blackout is bound to occur but it will depend largely on the altitude you are fighting at, your AC bleed and recover rates and your timing. So even though your g may peek at over 8.5 or 9 at times, you still spend a good deal of time bellow 5.5 or 6. The average turning rate will still be better then the best sustained. Sometimes as much as 2-3 seconds better. This is all of a tail chase scenario though. If you go nose to nose, one circle, then bleed away..... i try to avoid those against Hornets and Flankers though....

 

P.S. Sorry for the late reply. I am seldom online these days.

 

P.P.S. Experiment with your bird. If you don't have the full Ps charts for the plane you fly with, try and using your acceleration rates as a rough indicator for your best energy recovery envelope range (though this won't take into the account the induced drag from the alpha buildup).

 

No problem, thank your for your reply.

 

Yeah it seams an interesting technique, specially the average turning rate being better then the sustained.

[jcdata]

Yep, surviving through the merge and the initial couple of circles is half the work. You need to avoid scissors at all cost. Work the vertical, but not in a way that will telegraph your intent. Wait until you are bellow his horizon before you make that move. But keep your energy up as long as possible. Most importantly, keep it where you can regain it.

Interesting how you say avoid scissors ... I hear rolling scissors being used

 

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[probad]

quite a big difference between rolling scissors and flat scissors.

[captain_dalan]

What he said! ^^ :D

[jcdata]

quite a big difference between rolling scissors and flat scissors.

He didn't define.. rolleyes

 

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[captain_dalan]

He didn't define.. rolleyes

 

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Eh, usually when someone mentions scissors, they meant the regular flat kind....not the vertical one, not the rolling one....unless you are the screen writer for Dogfights, in which case whenever you say rolling scissors, you actually mean the flat kind :doh:

 

But if any clarification is needed.....yeah, i meant the flat kind :thumbup:

[Hummingbird]

To give you guys an idea of what to expect here's a little graphical comparison based on the official EM charts:

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hummingbird