Crazy Egyptian pilot's maneuver

[Pirke77]

You are right with the Cl, you misunderstood what I said. Let me rephrase that:

 

In order to be able to split-S from 1000m like you can do in simulator the MiG-21's lift coefficient at 15 deg AOA would have to be as big as MiG-29's lift coefficient at 24 deg AOA, which is beyond completely crazy.

 

I agree this is a game but who say i was fly mig21 on 15 deg aoa ? Look my video an you will see aoa most time in end yelow and good way over in red aoa ;) But again this is just a game. Real mig21 pilot say you can fly in this high aoa only without sliding very easy all way untill you have altitude ;) Plane stay in this position all time untill hit ground if you dont recovery ;) And about diagrams real pilot on mig21 say they dont work in real life like it would ;) Salute my friend ;)

[yufighter]

@Fox One

 

See .trk file that I set up in the cockpit and you will see that the value of the AOA during the maneuver at the border to cross into the red box, through (28 degrees). Me and pilot Pirke77 we flew the flight manual for MiG 21bis Serbian Air Force, and here we analyze the case of extreme flight Egyptian pilots.

 

Here is a diagram of height loss in maneuvers split-s (prevrtanje) as well as instructions on Serbian language.

 

I apologize for the Google English.

Edited September 11, 2016 by yufighter

[Fox One]

I agree this is a game but who say i was fly mig21 on 15 deg aoa ? Look my video an you will see aoa most time in end yelow and good way over in red aoa

 

It is clear you don't understand what is going on here. On MiG-21's left side of the air intake there is the AOA probe that feeds the cockpit indicator. The airflow around that area is influenced by the fuselage, more precisely the airflow is deflected upwards. This is called local airflow and the AOA as measured by a probe in that area is called local AOA. Because the local airflow is deflected upwards by comparison with the undisturbed airflow, the AOA measured by the probe will be bigger than the true AOA measured in the undisturbed airflow. The angle measured by the probe is shown as it is on cockpit indicator, even thoug the real AOA is smaller, that's not so important. The pilot knows what is the limit value he can use. That the real AOA angle that "hits the wings" is smaller than what indicator shows makes little difference, you have an indicator and you know what to avoid.

 

In simulator, when cockpit indicator shows 28 deg, switch to external view and there you can see the REAL AOA that is smaller. Real AOA is what defines what the aircraft will do.

 

In order to have real AOA displayed in cockpit, you need to correct it for disturbances. This is what happens to MiG-29 and Su-27, which display real AOA. All Russian aircraft before MiG-29 and Su-27 display local AOA.

 

You might want to know that Su-27, F-16 and MiG-29 have AOA limiters for 24, 25 and 26 deg true AOA. And you really thought you were flying at 28 deg REAL AOA with an old interceptor with a wing with symmetrical profile with no camber, no leading edge devices, no LERX, no nothing? Well, there is a lot you don't know about military aircraft. Maneuvering at 28 deg true AOA is indeed a big deal, and in order to do this, complex configurations were developed for 4th generation fighters and later. And you thought MiG-21 was already doing this in the 60s... :D:D:D

 

And about diagrams real pilot on mig21 say they dont work in real life like it would

 

Yeah, a real MiG-21 pilot told me the same thing, diagrams are wrong and useless. For example, the real MiG-21's turn performance is actually slightly better than Su-27. And you probably can guess why, MiG-21 is turning with 28deg AOA, and Su-27 is turning with only 24deg AOA

[Pirke77]

Agree but ... On mig29 aoa limitator can be overide. In turn bank 80-90 deagres with afterburner on 300km/h with stick on beally. Stick wona go forward but you keep at on belly with muscles and plane go like beast no mater of aoa anymore. And about Mig21 and Su27 turn rate is not only determinated buy AoA ;) You can put 70 AoA and go steight without turning ;) Dont watch this shity instruments ;)

Edited September 11, 2016 by Pirke77

[Pirke77]

Today virtual and real pilots to much depend of instruments and other gizmos ;) Small procent of today pilots can fly by sense without instruments. Small % can takeoff , fly and land for example mig21 only buy sense of sound of engine, position of throtle , shaking of plane and speed perception in vfr rules.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Pirke77

[Pirke77]

All what jets and prop can do you can do with no powered hangglider ;)

Delta wing ;)

With no instruments you can do all aerobatic manuvers only by sense ;)

Edited September 12, 2016 by Pirke77

[Pirke77]

Well, there is a lot you don't know about military aircraft.

Yes i am train driver and i still learning about this flying :(

[sLYFa]

In order to be able to split-S from 1000m like you can do in simulator the MiG-21's lift coefficient at 15 deg AOA would have to be as big as MiG-29's lift coefficient at 24 deg AOA, which is beyond completely crazy.

 

That is not necessarily true. Dont confuse lift coefficient with actual lift. And keep in mind that the Mig-29 is significantly heavier than the -21, thus requiering more actual lift then the -21 to maintain a certain turn radius. That may be compensated by the -29´s larger wing area but I highly doubt that a tube with delta´s attached to it has the same Cl as a sophisticated 4th gen fighter at ANY AoA

[Fox One]

Yes i am train driver and i still learning about this flying :(

 

Hey trains are cool too :)

[Fox One]

I highly doubt that a tube with delta´s attached to it has the same Cl as a sophisticated 4th gen fighter at ANY AoA

 

:doh:

 

I not only highly doubt that, I AM SURE of it, I thought I made that pretty clear in my posts. A MiG-21 is not comparable with a MiG-29 in any respect. My example with MiG-29's split-S diagram was just to show that a MiG-29, a vastly superior fighter compared to MiG-21 will need close to all the lift it can generate to be able to split-S in 1000m. My example was meant to show there's really zero chance a MiG-21 would be able to do the same.

[sLYFa]

Sry I missunderstood you, I thought you were making that claim seriously ...

[Pirke77]

Ok we talk to much :) Lets show what we can do :)

 

Challenge - Split S with Mig21 with 5% fuel :)

 

My best for now is 791m :)

 

In on 834m and out on 43m :)

 

Lets make lowest radius possible for game :)

 

Salute !

Tacview-20160912-145500-DCS.txt.rar

[Pirke77]

From me this is lowest I can go :(

 

My best for now is 767m

 

In on 849m and out on 82m.

 

Show me your skills ...

767m.txt.rar

[Pirke77]

I think I can't go lower but ...

 

My best for now is 622m.

 

In on 650m and out on 28m.

 

Two records for now ;) Lowest in point and lowest radius :) My train say CHU CHU CHU :)

622m.txt.rar

[Pirke77]

My best for now is 621m.

 

In on 656m and out on 35m.

 

 

Because of low quality video on YouTube I upload better video in file format.

 

http://www.filedropper.com/621

 

 

Attention: Flying is done in full realistic settings. In game mode I can do it on 525m and maybe lower but I am not interested in this kind of flying :) Honor on first place !!! Salute !

621m.txt.rar

[Mike Busutil]

Have you tried the ARU-3VM operating mode selector in manual? High speed vs low speed...

[Pirke77]

Have you tried the ARU-3VM operating mode selector in manual? High speed vs low speed...

 

Yes I try it but its the same because I am on speeds below 500km/h and altitude is below 500m :) No difference if is on automatic or manual ;) I have maximum movements on control surface in auto and manual ;) Thanks :)

[Pirke77]

Why I am only doing this ? Pls give me homework :)

 

My best for now is 578m.

 

In on 811m and out on 233m.

 

 

WE NEED LOWER RADIUS ;)

578m.txt.rar

[Alpenwolf]

Hi fellows,

 

I guess most of you heard about this dogfight during the Yom Kippur war in 1973 during which an Israeli Mirage III and an Egyptian Mig-21PF fought.

An episode of the Dogfights series depicts this particular event, when the Mig-21 being chased by the Mirage made a desperate maneuver to evade the fight. The maneuver, quite well-known, a split-S was attempted at a very low altitude (ca. 3000 ft) while the safe value found in the Mig-21 manuals was set at 6500 ft.

It seems that the Egyptian made it and managed to recover the plane just before crashing on the ground. Unfortunatly for him, the Mirage shot him while he was just a sitting duck with no energy.

No political debat here, just a question.

Has anybody here tried to reproduce the maneuver at this altitude ?

 

I know it is not the same plane nor the same engine but before the latest patch, I made many attempts and with the former FM, I managed to "survive" a split-S engaged at about 3500ft. Too bad I didn't save the track.

Yesterday, I tried again but the new FM didn't allow me to repeat it. The lowest and safest starting point was about 5000ft.

 

My "recipe" was to begin the split at about 600kph IAS, throttle on idle and AB when the pitch is approaching 0° at the end of the maneuver.

 

I'd be curious to read your experience about that.

 

Just for the record, the pilot is still alive! Maj. Gen. Ahmed Kamal Abdul Hamid al-Mansouri.

 

He scored various air-to-air kills. We don't want to get political, but the way I see it, saying he was shot down is part of a propaganda as if egyptian pilots or russian planes are hopeless in a fight. We don't really wanna believe everything on so-called educating TV-channels, do we?

 

http://thecairopost.youm7.com/news/126509/editors-choice/i-was-born-to-fly-an-interview-with-the-october-wars-phantom-killer

 

http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.de/2009/10/another-crazy-egyptian-pilot-black.html

[CoBlue]

Just for the record, the pilot is still alive! Maj. Gen. Ahmed Kamal Abdul Hamid al-Mansouri.

He scored various air-to-air kills. We don't want to get political, but the way I see it, saying he was shot down is part of a propaganda as if egyptian pilots or russian planes are hopeless in a fight. We don't really wanna believe everything on so-called educating TV-channels, do we?

http://thecairopost.youm7.com/news/126509/editors-choice/i-was-born-to-fly-an-interview-with-the-october-wars-phantom-killer

http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.de/2009/10/another-crazy-egyptian-pilot-black.html

And how exactly is it established that it was Mansouri the 2 Israeli pilots fought that day? & not some other Mig-21 pilot that is dead?

[Alpenwolf]

And how exactly is it established that it was Mansouri the 2 Israeli pilots fought that day? & not some other Mig-21 pilot that is dead?

 

... cause the guy's told that story himself a couple of times. In fact he even mentioned stressing the MiG-21 exceeding it's limits many times in order to squeeze anything useful out of it. They did it at altittudes of 4500 ft according to him. In that situation he had no other chance; "was gonna die anyways so why not risk it?!". I read a lot, I watch a lot and I do understand and speak a language or two. This is what I can say about this and the previous was my opinion on the matter. You believe whatever you want to, buddy. Do your homework.

 

S!