MiG-21 exhaust smoke

[shagrat]

Sorry! Actually not "hitting" anyone... I just want to point out, that LN had the best possible source to build the Mig as real as possible. So rather making assumptions from YouTube videos it would be a brilliant idea to ask LN if the Pilot is happy with the smoke effect and if it is close to real life or not.

Not attacking anybody, only pointing at the options we have.

 

Sorry, again if it sounded like I personally attacked you.

[pepin1234]

No problem. Every body have right to say what they think. I honestly don't feel good seeing the others aircrafts enemy airvrafts at 30 km and be seen. I think this is not possible in the real life. So if this is a simulator then that should change.

 

I think this is a problem that should concern more to ED than LN. Should be a solution...

Edited May 4, 2015 by pepin1234

[shagrat]

I think LN sets the amount of smoke that is produced by the engine and thus rendered... It does not seem likely that ED changes that amount in a third party module. If they tweak the overall amount other aircrafts are affected, as well.

Edited May 4, 2015 by shagrat

[Esac_mirmidon]

No problem Shagrat. i´m trying to be as positive and constructive as you.

 

Actually i can´t find any problem with in game smoke.

 

Chasing a Mig-21 at 6000 feet and 15 km away. Could anyone see the smoke?

 

 

And now?

 

 

Maybe under some circunstances it´s possible to see the smoke far away but in my squad we fly regulary the Fishbed and we always have a very hard time spotting it at any distance. We never find any Mig because the smoke trail instead at very short distance or because sudden RPM changes. ( The magical plufff )

[Justin Case]

Can anyone confirm with screenshots and labels that you can spot a smoke trail from 20-30 kilometers in DCS?

[shagrat]

In similiar fashion these videos of mig-21 in flight show that the engine exhaust is really hard to see even from close up, and certainly nowhere near the telltale mark from dozens of miles away present in dcs currently:

 

The resolution is 480p the video may not showing particles in the air (smoketrail) at that low resolution?

 

Basically the same problem, yet at 2:23 even with the low resolution the smoke trail is clearly visible...

 

Again, even in monochrome video you see a noticable smoketrail (0:34).. that's where I stopped watching.

 

I agree with Esaac_mirmidon, there is room for improvement with the smoketrails, but also with the planes LOD in general and the missiles especially the AMRAAM and AIM-9X are not as good as IRL etc. ...which will lead to the ultimate question, should ED postpone DCS 2.0 to 2016 and work on these issues now, or continue to get DCS 2.0 out the door?

 

To me it seems a lot changed with LOD and smoke in particular in DCS2.0 already (flares, missile trails). :music_whistling:

[cro_mig_21]

Hey guys, I asked an active veteran Croatian air force pilot about the smoke, he could not give a certain answer as he says that it really depends on a lot of parameters such as a trained eye of course, the position of the airplane, weather and meteo conditions as well as the engine regime...he said there should be no smoke at 90% power setting.

Anyway, on sunday I am going to an airshow and will watch closely what happens with the exhaust smoke ;)

[Esac_mirmidon]

What i've said from the beggining. It depends on the engine RPM and other external factors and conditions.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[shagrat]

^^^this. Lot oft things to factor...

Edited May 6, 2015 by shagrat

[Frostie]

This is not a query for LN this should be put in the DCS forum. Aircraft smoke is generic in game all jets give off the same level of smoke. The visibility is usually dependent on graphic card, ATI seems to see smoke much better than Nvidia. Smoke trails from all jets can be clearly seen over 30km.

[shagrat]

This is not a query for LN this should be put in the DCS forum. Aircraft smoke is generic in game all jets give off the same level of smoke. The visibility is usually dependent on graphic card, ATI seems to see smoke much better than Nvidia. Smoke trails from all jets can be clearly seen over 30km.

Nope. Aircraft have different level of smoke. It is generic from the game engine, but definitely there is at least an "amount" parameter.

[Frostie]

Nope. Aircraft have different level of smoke. It is generic from the game engine, but definitely there is at least an "amount" parameter.

 

But the visibility range is the same regardless.

[shagrat]

May be, but the effect for the A-10C is barely noticeable, while a Mig-15 or Mig-21 smokes like a steam locomotive...

And I never noticed visible smoke on any of my A-10C wingmen in MP even if we split the flight etc.

F-15C seems to have a less distinctive smoke effect as well. And I don't remember seeing any trails from distance in any of Ralfidudes DCS videos, though that may be just me?

[Frostie]

I don't recall seeing A10 smoke but F15 is very visible for me, I run an ATI card which seems to play a huge part.

[shagrat]

Ah OK, that might be an issue... So next we start calling all ATI users "cheaters" :D

[Sleksa]

I don't recall seeing A10 smoke but F15 is very visible for me, I run an ATI card which seems to play a huge part.

 

I have a ATI card as well, and A-10's as well as F-15's might as well be invisible to me if I'm not within 2km of them and right on their tail.

 

Migs and Su's though can easily be seen from up to 80km from the signature smoke at daytime, and 20+ km at night time. Although showing exactly how easy it is through screenshots is a tad bit hard since the movement of the smoke against a background is one of the things that makes it so easy to spot, however these 2 showcase just how absurd it can be:

 

Day:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Night:

 

 

 

Thin white line going up and to the right from the asterism.

 

 

 

 

I'd argue that being able to spot targets from their smoke signature, beyond ranges of the mig 29's or even Su-27's radar, isn't too realistic. From gameplay point of view this is also quite problematic as it gives some planes a significant disadvantage that's akin to having a pink/purple banner behind the plane.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Sleksa

[shagrat]

Yep, but if this depends on which graphics card you use and how the driver renders the smoke shader... Well, what should ED or LNS do about your ATI card?

[Sleksa]

Yep, but if this depends on which graphics card you use and how the driver renders the smoke shader... Well, what should ED or LNS do about your ATI card?

 

I don't think this is just a ATI-specific issue since many of my friends can also spot targets from the same distances with different computer setups and varying ingame settings, by looking for the smoke trails.

 

The smoke itself though is already completely modifiable (By leatherneck, or ED) as currently every smoke (except the huey) uses ExhaustTrailAir.lua in particlesystems 2. It is already possible to make a specified airplane use, for example a custom ExhaustTrailMiG29.lua file. However this is for obvious reasons non-compatible with the majority of online servers.

 

Ideally I'd personally want to see atleast several rough categories of smoke variation, like Heavy, medium and light smokers, as currently they're all either smoking or not.

 

You're right about the topic location possibly being in the wrong section though considering the direction of the thread's gone from the initial findings of the have doughnut report to the structure of smoke systems in dcs in general :).

[shagrat]

I don't think this is just a ATI-specific issue since many of my friends can also spot targets from the same distances with different computer setups and varying ingame settings, by looking for the smoke trails.

I can't tell, it was Frostie's info... so maybe, maybe not.

The smoke itself though is already completely modifiable (By leatherneck, or ED) as currently every smoke (except the huey) uses ExhaustTrailAir.lua in particlesystems 2. It is already possible to make a specified airplane use, for example a custom ExhaustTrailMiG29.lua file. However this is for obvious reasons non-compatible with the majority of online servers.

 

Ideally I'd personally want to see atleast several rough categories of smoke variation, like Heavy, medium and light smokers, as currently they're all either smoking or not.

We can't be sure of that, as the original effect is defined in C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Bazar\shaders\ParticleSystem2\ExhaustTrail.fx and ExhaustTrail_vs.hisl

 

Nor does anyone know if the actual smoketrail (at what speeds and/or altitude etc.) is defined in the lua, fx or hlsl files or in th emodule which just tells the shader to produce a smoketrail and where its point of origin is... only LNS or maybe ED know for sure.

 

I would guess at least the EFM planes don't use the lua file smoke trail definition as the A-10C has more or less NO smoketrail at all, under most conditions, so maybe the FC3 planes use it, but I really doubt the definition is the same for all planes as obviously different planes generate different exhaust trails.

You're right about the topic location possibly being in the wrong section though considering the direction of the thread's gone from the initial findings of the have doughnut report to the structure of smoke systems in dcs in general :).

Agreed, currnetly the only useful input is that some people have problems with smoketrails visibility on especially the Mig-21 compared to an F-15 and/or other planes. From what I can see, the rest is assumptions about how the smoke system works, what either ED or LNS can or cannot do about it and the ususal "its not realistic" with proof from substandard Youtube vids, as most guys (including me) never sat in a real Mig or F-15 or A-10 at 10k feet and know how a real smoketrail in a real plane at that altitude and flight conditions will look like? :music_whistling:

[Frostie]

I would guess at least the EFM planes don't use the lua file smoke trail definition as the A-10C has more or less NO smoketrail at all, under most conditions, so maybe the FC3 planes use it, but I really doubt the definition is the same for all planes as obviously different planes generate different exhaust trails.

There is another file that relates to smoke trails and that is planeconst.lua, in that file there is a smokiness level for each engine, MiG-29 is set at 0.5, the Su27 and F-15 0.1 and the A-10C at 0.01 but only one engine the other is blocked off with --. Interestingly the A-10A has both engines blanked off with -- and in game it gives off no smoke whatsoever. There is no MiG-21 so I should imagine it is located in the relevant mod file somewhere.

 

I tested last night and the Su27 smoke is slighty darker than the MiG-21 this may be down to the twin engines though. A brief plume is only visible from the A-10C at throttle up changes. The Su25 and MiG-29 are slightly darker than the Su27.

[shagrat]

Good find! That sounds like a tweakable option... Now if a cheater would set his environment to smokiness level 5 for all planes, would integrity check monitor that file? :D ...I know, I'm a bad man, but if I can think of it, so can others?

Honestly, I never tried a stunt like that, as I play coop anyway and cheating on an AI/computer is not possible, but compared to the discussion about "smart scaling is cheating" this is definitely more tempting... :megalol;

Edited May 13, 2015 by shagrat

[Frostie]

Default integrity check doesn't check that file but on popular servers it is a standard addition because a lot of aircraft parameters are in that file.

[shagrat]

Good, so it is not an option for cheating. On the negative side it would require ED to address that settings and then still the Mig-21 has its own settings, so LNS needs to have a look.

Hmm, I would recommend to wait for DCS 2/EDGE and see how the DirectX10/11 smoke effects handle that issue...