P-51 Navigation

[Pineapple Pete]

Greetings All,

I am wondering about how cross country navigation is accomplished without an operational NDB in the P-51. I am familiar with dead reckoning navigation but that requires some pre determined givens.

Is the course shown on the map mission planner true or magnetic?

Are winds aloft present?

So, if you plan a quick mission in weather other than clear, how does one navigate to target and return to home?

I have been looking around in the manuals but I am not finding mush information.:book:

Many thanks.

[atsmith6]

Effectively visually using terrain features & landmarks. In bad weather,if the clouds allow you to peak down at the terrain it's still possible but no longer safe.

 

I believe the editor points to true north. To see the deviation take the runway heading in the editor and then climb into the pit and read the compass heading. In bad weather wind will also severly deteriorate the accuracy of dead reckoning done nievely.

[Pineapple Pete]

Thanks for the info on weather. I also see magnetic variation is shown on the maps.

[Blech]

Hi,

 

Perhaps of interest and usefull for simulating classic navigation planning/flying (course, speed, time, landmarks)

 

 

Balu's Flight Planning Tool 2.2 (WIP - Beta)

Now for all airplanes (DCS mission import)

http://ariescon.com/index10.html

 

Pictures

Only as example - imported DCS misson with a MIG 21bis

[justinm11]

It would be cool if the Detrola LF receiver worked. Easy to use hard to master, but it would be neat if the system worked. There was a system made for Fs2004 that allowed similar equipment to work properly and simulated the Radio Ranges of the time. With out this equipment we have no choice but to navigate using pilotage, or in the case where a mission designer puts upper winds in you could manually plot the whole mission into a navlog. The way to do this is way more than one post here can explain. Theres lots of explanations to be found online though!

[Captain Orso]

Speaking of navigation, I can dead-reckon fairly well just by using landmarks. The biggest issue I have is that the maps I have on the knee board start with one with a low scale of the area around the airport from where I'm starting, then going to one with a larger scale, still centered on the same airport. etc.

 

But the further I am from the TO airport the less detail I have on any map to use for dead reckoning. After 15 minutes all there is on the map I'm still on is major cities and airports, which makes dead reckoning practically impossible.

 

Is there any way to get a bunch of higher detailed maps along a flight route?

[atsmith6]

But the further I am from the TO airport the less detail I have on any map to use for dead reckoning. After 15 minutes all there is on the map I'm still on is major cities and airports, which makes dead reckoning practically impossible.

 

There are plenty of natural visual references. I use the rivers / lakes as my primary route lines. I also do dead reckoning between specific landmarks. The one thing you CANT use in DCS is the buildings as they're just too generic but there are loads of landmarks that do work. Think bridges etc. Plan your flight on the mission map carefully taking notes on headings distances etc. Soon you will be able to fly the P-51 anywhere on VFR alone.

[Captain Orso]

I'd still like to have some fairly high scale maps beyond a radius of a dozen or so miles from the AP of origin.

 

What is the point of having a high scaled map of where I started? I'm right there. It's not likely that I get lost within a couple of miles of from where I started.

 

Writing down a list of landmarks is fine and good, but when on a long flight if you miss a landmark, then you can easily get lost. Beside, as the old adage says, a picture is worth a thousand words ;)

[Lib]

I remain that if you had drawn the lines of your flight in the mission editor, then you were able to have the high scaled maps of the zones crossed by your lines.

 

to resum, the presence of high scaled maps were determined in the kbneeboard by drawing the flight plan in the mission editor.

 

I didn't fly the P51 for a long time, so i don't know if it is still like that, but that's how it was working in the past.

[whiteladder]

These are quite useful

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEatUIZzO_o

 

Especially the tip about looking for land marks only near the time you expect to see them.

[Captain Orso]

I remain that if you had drawn the lines of your flight in the mission editor, then you were able to have the high scaled maps of the zones crossed by your lines.

 

to resum, the presence of high scaled maps were determined in the kbneeboard by drawing the flight plan in the mission editor.

 

I didn't fly the P51 for a long time, so i don't know if it is still like that, but that's how it was working in the past.

 

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I hadn't been plotting the course in the mission editor :thumbup:

 

These are quite useful

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEatUIZzO_o

 

Especially the tip about looking for land marks only near the time you expect to see them.

 

Real-world examples are always helpful and fun :D

 

Many thanks again.

[Gosling]

Not trying to teach anyone to "suck eggs", but:

Heading and Times - Thats all you need, Headings and times.

Of course that is not all but you start with those and you adjust for wind to get better headings and times...

First thing to remember is "...ish" is good. Stuff does not need to be accurate, just accurate enough to be within two minutes flight time as you can then see the target. I wrote these presentation to try to help.

 

http://616sqn.tidesofwar.net/data/616BasicNavPlan.pdf

http://616sqn.tidesofwar.net/data/616BasicNavWind.pdf

http://616sqn.tidesofwar.net/data/616BasicNavFly.pdf

[BuzzU]

Doesn't AWACS give the heading and range?

Edited March 24, 2017 by BuzzU

[AG-51_Razor]

It would sure be nice if ED would model the YG (or was it YE?) navigation system that they actually used back then. It was implemented in IL-2 Pacific Fighters and worked very well.

[BuzzU]

I just got the P-51 and i'm going through the manual. It talks about AWACS giving Heading and Range. Is that not true? I haven't tried it yet.

[Habu_69]

I just got the P-51 and i'm going through the manual. It talks about AWACS giving Heading and Range. Is that not true? I haven't tried it yet.

Except that during the P-51 combat era AWACS did not exist.

[BuzzU]

Kind of what I thought too, but since it's in the manual I wasn't sure. I guess the OP better learn how to use a compass.

[Habu_69]

Except that during the P-51 combat era AWACS did not exist.

 

Guess I should elaborate in that although airborne AWACS did not exist, The UK had ground-based radar that assisted in directing fighters to incoming enemy aircraft.

[Paradox]

Guess I should elaborate in that although airborne AWACS did not exist, The UK had ground-based radar that assisted in directing fighters to incoming enemy aircraft.

 

And to be entirely fair the way it works in DCS isn't dissimilar: set the radio frequency to one of the radio buttons (ground crew job (mission editor ingame)) then you can talk to the people that tell you where the enemies are

 

Whether that's an airborne AWACS or a Chain Home control room is neither here nor there to me.

 

Though maybe in Normandy having an E-3 flying about is egregiously anachronistic