Cannot maintain level flight with maximum nose down trim

[AussieFX]

Shouldn't Force Feedback Controls handle all the dynamics of this and different aircraft Helo/Plane. I'm not sure what others think of the G940 setup and or how it works for helos. Would be nice to hear others opinions on this. Does a force feedback work correctly in game... does the G940 give the sensitivity required your describing? Will there ever be a better solution?

 

The G940 works very well in helicopters with relation to trim.

The only real issue is if you trim then take your hand off it will sometimes flop forward due to the weight of the handle. I guess if I used a higher centering force it would be better. I prefer to set and forget my stick and work around any problems though. I hate diving into the software and changing things constantly. No curves and no deadzone, always.

 

I'm not certain about fixed wing though. As a retired helicopter pilot I've had very little seat time in fixed wing and certainly not in as powerful aircraft such as DCS simulates.

The P-51 feels good using aileron trim when it's asymmetrically loaded that's for sure, my G940 loses all the load when it's correctly trimmed.

 

I couldn't imagine not using FFB now.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

With a 10 cm extension, the centering force is very low. You almost don' t feel it. You also gain a lot in precision. It goes from 2cm to 5-6cm each way at full deflection.

Since I got mine I am starting to think that it is mandatory to really exploit the warthog' s sensors precision.

Exactly :smilewink:. I have almost 20cm in mine, and I think even a bit more would be needed to squeeze the precision available. Flying with every aircraft and helicopter available in DCS is a joy with a long stick. In DCSWII it would be mandatory IMHO. 109 just yells asking for a long stick.

 

S!

Edited June 26, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I really have to save for a Warthog :-/

[Echo38]

FWIW, the two deadliest virtual fighter pilots I knew both preferred the MSFFB2 to the Warthog (they each owned both). Those appear to be the two best commercially-available, mass-produced sticks (although the MS has, of course, long been discontinued), but I've found more high-skill simmers to prefer the MS to the TM. Almost all of the high-performing VFPs I've known, however, ended up using one or the other. Furthermore, those who stuck with the Warthog, invariably modded its length (and usually the spring, too).

 

I've never had the opportunity to lay my hands on either stick, myself, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I used to duel many high-scoring VFPs back in the day, and I always would ask them their equipment setup (& often discuss it at length). The most common complaint about the Warthog was indeed the stiffness, from users of all skill levels. In fact, other than the fact that it doesn't have force feedback, it was the only complaint I ever heard about it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Echo38

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I've never had the opportunity to lay my hands on either stick, myself, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I used to duel many high-scoring VFPs back in the day, and I always would ask them their equipment setup (& often discuss it at length). The most common complaint about the Warthog was indeed the stiffness, from users of all skill levels. In fact, other than the fact that it doesn't have force feedback, it was the only complaint I ever heard about it.

Indeed it is. I've to say I've seen some examples of it owned by friends and strength change from softly nice to uncomfortable strong (mine is the strongest I've use... :(). Anyway, not the reason I made my long stick mod but looking for realism. That and also after one instructor told me he clearly identified my shakes in a centre stick aircraft with a short joytick user :lol:. But yes, spring stiffness is too high. Just Warthog has the easiness of a couple screws to mod its length so we can easily have quite a nice long stick for DCS level (WWII yes, but Helicopters... or 50's fighters... or...).

 

S!

Edited June 26, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Echo38]

Just Warthog has the easiness of a couple screws to mod its length

 

Really! No work on the wiring or anything?

[[DBS]TH0R]

Really! No work on the wiring or anything?

 

You need the extension cable to bridge the connection when installing the extension itself (mini DIN 5 PIN male and female connectors). Quite easy to do if you have even basic soldering skills (hell I did it myself).

 

Without the extension Warthog is heavy for a prolonged use, in particular if you are doing any heavy maneuvering and using it on a desk. First of all it sits too high, then the spring strength is almost twice as powerful as any other stick.

 

To get most out of it you need to center mount and extend it. Rule of thumb is 7-10 cm for fixed wing and 10-20 cm for helicopters.

[Sporg]

Echo38, the guy who makes the Warthog extension that I linked to earlier, also made a little video to show how easy it is to mount, if you have a pre-made kit:

Edited June 26, 2015 by Sporg

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Really! No work on the wiring or anything?

Yup, as Thor said. You need a cable extension that depending on length can be already found as PS2 mouse extender or keyboard/mouse spliter, or if you go the long way you have to weld some cables, but easy enough. It's a wonderful mod, and keeps original hardware unaltered. Take a look on mine. I helped a friend doing his extension also, a bit shorter and straight (mine had to be curved because seating reasons only). Any extension improves vastly Warthog use (specially in WWII warbirds), but after trying both I prefer my length.

 

S!

Edited June 26, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Echo38]

You need a cable extension that depending on length can be already found as PS2 mouse extender or keyboard/mouse spliter, or if you go the long way you have to weld some cables, but easy enough. It's a wonderful mod, and keeps original hardware unaltered. Take a look on mine.

 

Good to know; thanks.

[dok_rp]

Yup, as Thor said. You need a cable extension that depending on length can be already found as PS2 mouse extender or keyboard/mouse spliter, or if you go the long way you have to weld some cables, but easy enough. It's a wonderful mod, and keeps original hardware unaltered. Take a look on mine. I helped a friend doing his extension also, a bit shorter and straight (mine had to be curved because seating reasons only). Any extension improves vastly Warthog use (specially in WWII warbirds), but after trying both I prefer my length.

 

S!

 

 

Hello Ala13,

 

You inspired me to try and build my own extension out of your idea with the PVC pipes.

 

I bought the Gardena hose adapter from Amazon and it'll be about 2 weeks until I get it here in Brazil.

 

I have a few questions though. Hope you could help. =)

 

1) If I understood correctly (my Spanish is not that good :smartass:) you heated up a 40mm sleeve and forced it so it would mold itself around the Gardena connector. Is that right?

 

2) Then you used a 40mm ==> 32mm reducer and from there on added two 45º elbows.

 

3) The top elbow was threaded. Did the thread from the PVC elbow adapt perfectly in the female joystick base? Did you have to make any extra adjustments?

 

4) Does the Gardena hose adapter fits perfectly in the joystick base? Is it necessary to make and extra refinement in the piece?

 

 

Thank you so much for your ideas. :smartass:

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Glad you like it, and you'll see the difference :smilewink:. And sorry for the OT,

 

 

I have a few questions though. Hope you could help. =)

 

1) If I understood correctly (my Spanish is not that good :smartass:) you heated up a 40mm sleeve and forced it so it would mold itself around the Gardena connector. Is that right?

Indeed. I wanted to keep it simple and avoid machinery use (dremel, you know) as much as possible. PVC is tough to work with, you have to heat a lot without burning it and warm up as much homogeneously as you can.

 

 

2) Then you used a 40mm ==> 32mm reducer and from there on added two 45º elbows.

Affirmative. Elbows are for my own use clearing the seat, but you can keep it straight if you want to and your place allows it. You have to keep in mind using elbows also prevents joystick spring to center the jostick any more in positive pitch movement (but does in the other three directions) because Warthog stick is quite weighted. At least mine doesn't even though the really hard spring, but it doesn't falls itself, just keeps the position where you left it.

 

 

3) The top elbow was threaded. Did the thread from the PVC elbow adapt perfectly in the female joystick base? Did you have to make any extra adjustments?

Affirmative, and affirmative. Male gardena screw is plastic so fits perfectly. Anyway I put some PVC glue inside after joining both parts just in case and it's quite strong till now. It's also possible to eliminate the screw threads leaving plastic straight, but I didn't IIRC and works fine. Again PVC is a tough one and heating requires same care as previously, this time to prevent any elbow bending or shape losing.

 

 

4) Does the Gardena hose adapter fits perfectly in the joystick base? Is it necessary to make and extra refinement in the piece?

That's the reason for using that model, Warthog uses English screw measure (no metric) so you need one fitting perfectly to prevent damaging the original Joystick plastic screw threads. Depending in your result you can put some stop in female gardena screw to prevent screwing too far. It isn't needed to screw the base to the end and if you do it you can find extension hitting the Joystick base. To stop the screw you can make an o-ring using spare thick electrical cable, for instance the remnants of the PS2 long cable if you weld your own are good enough. You can use one, two or as wished o-rings. It's important also if you use elbows because you want your extension elbows to look backwards, if not stopped screw can end facing everywhere.

 

 

Thank you so much for your ideas.

Indeed I took ideas from others also, so half idea :smilewink:.

 

S!

Edited June 27, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Sokol1_br]

And avoid twist the joystick base fitting the extension, http://the plastic gimbal of Warthog is easy to broken. :joystick:

[Slazi]

Does DCS offer axis sensitivity tuning on a per-module basis? If so, perhaps that'd fix the incompatibility between your stick and the module. That seems to be the problem. I'm quite happy to push my stick slightly during flight on an X52 pro.

 

Quick starting in the air is horrible, but after a manual takeoff it feels fine.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Does DCS offer axis sensitivity tuning on a per-module basis?

Sorry to say but, do you use DCS even the free modules? :shocking: :shocking: :shocking:

 

Of course you can, and it's good and bad, good to customize everything you want, bad because setting up every module every time is painful.

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

I hate the type of loading Warthog has - strongly pre-tensioned spring and almost no force gradient as you deflect the joystick. Extremely non-informative and exhausting feeling... and way far from the real plane feeling. So, I can imagine how irritating is to hold it 1 mm forward applying almost full force.

 

And this a conflict between accurate modelling and game controllers design. :)

 

Indeed it is. I've to say I've seen some examples of it owned by friends and strength change from softly nice to uncomfortable strong (mine is the strongest I've use... :(). Anyway, not the reason I made my long stick mod but looking for realism. That and also after one instructor told me he clearly identified my shakes in a centre stick aircraft with a short joytick user :lol:. But yes, spring stiffness is too high. Just Warthog has the easiness of a couple screws to mod its length so we can easily have quite a nice long stick for DCS level (WWII yes, but Helicopters... or 50's fighters... or...).

 

S!

 

I think you're completely wrong. The length and stiffness of the joystick have nothing to do when we fly the airplane at cruise speed, with horizontal stabilizer trim in neutral and hand-off.

Reason for this?? ..The hands are OFF, :music_whistling:

You can put the Eiffel tower as Joystick, but the result will be the same.. :D

 

Probably in a few days we will have more reliable data on the elevator trim Bf-109G.

and what is the reason that there is a 27.6% error in the elevator travel, between German data and the Russians used by Yo-Yo.

 

The history come from here: :music_whistling:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2420458&postcount=255

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2419648&postcount=243

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2417178&postcount=216

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2416830&postcount=207

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I actually still prefer my X52 Pro.

 

8 yrs ago I had a x52, very good. Then I gave away all of my sim stuff, and latter, in 2011, I got back from the guy I had offered my stuff his x52 Pro, which I used until all of the buttons on the stick unit stopped playing.

 

Then a friend who had bought the Warthog offered me his old Cougar Hotas, I bought replacement pots for it, but it didn't last long until the spikes started plaguing it again, but anyway, I really didn't find it's stiffness anywhere practical :-( - I made the mistake of spending 150+ euros in a x55....

 

Sold the x55, and am using back that great x52 Pro, which I still think is the best joystick I ever used.

 

Yesterday I re-installed DCS to test the 109 again, as well as to taste the great UH-1H and Mi8 I was beginning to miss. I still think I have to use way too much pitch trim, even at 1.2 or 1.1 ATA I am setting it at full nose heavy, but since the x52 Pro is rather soft, it is easy to maintain a bit of fwd pressure on the stick.

 

I experimented with different GWs, from 30% fuel and no ammunition to full ammunition and 100% fuel.

 

My biggest expectation for the Bf109 K4 right now is that it get's the stiffness modeled also for the yaw axis, at higher dynamic pressures, and a possible adjustment of the pitch trim, but it's still a great model of course, just like the Fw190 and the p51d, although, I have to confess, I really love those two helicopters :-)

Edited June 28, 2015 by jcomm

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I think you're completely wrong. The length and stiffness of the joystick have nothing to do when we fly the airplane at cruise speed, with horizontal stabilizer trim in neutral and hand-off.

Reason for this?? ..The hands are OFF, :music_whistling:

Ok, and I'm eager to see your proofs :smilewink:. About quote, still you don't understand how real aircraft behaves. Some aircraft just don't have "hands off" at all, even trimmed. The only "warbird" I've flown, a Tiger Moth, has no "center", just pitch control is so sensitive subtle and soft it's effortless to keep it anywhere you want (quite different in roll axe, sluggish and heavy). You cannot say "where" is the pitch centre and you can only try to feel what the plane wants to do. If you free the stick the aircraft would go everywhere but keep levelled, she don't want to and unloaded pitch will move stick back and forth. You are thinking about a modern training aircraft stability standard (an airliner if you want) while we are talking about a 40's aircraft where that doesn't existed yet nor was desirable.

 

The most probable scenery after what I saw along this thread is pilots just hold 109 stick with not much effort until very high speeds like you can do in many aircraft, so they had any problem at all with that. You do have a problem with that using your short joystick hardware. Also you're obsessed about that neutral trim setting and neutral doesn't means "high speed cruise" as you want to, it doesn't means in any other aircraft and what we have seen in graphs and papers is it also doesn't in Bf109.

 

S!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Back on topic again. I tested and I can fly level 1.3 ATA, 450Km/H, no "hands off" because roll torque but no pitch at all. It only starts going upwards reaching 500Km/H IAS and even then so slightly I doubt anyone has problems to hold it. Of course roll torque exists, but as any high performance high power engine small aircraft does. Going further in speed and engine power there's torque you have to hold. But what do you expect? You people seem to forget torque appears not by speed but with engine power changes, you can't hold torque only with trim going 1.8 ATA-MW50 even at 300Km/H, of course you can't.

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Ok, ...The only "warbird" I've flown, a Tiger Moth, has no "center", just pitch control is so sensitive subtle and soft it's effortless to keep it anywhere you want (quite different in roll axe, sluggish and heavy). You cannot say "where" is the pitch centre and you can only try to feel what the plane wants to do. If you free the stick the aircraft would go everywhere but keep levelled, she don't want to and unloaded pitch will move stick back and forth. You are thinking about a modern training aircraft stability standard (an airliner if you want) while we are talking about a 40's aircraft where that doesn't existed yet nor was desirable.

The most probable scenery after what I saw along this thread is pilots just hold 109 stick with not much effort until very high speeds like you can do in many aircraft, so they had any problem at all with that

You're comparing a rag biplane of 500Kg. of empty weight, ..with a FAST modern construction aircraft, made in duraluminium semi-monocoque with over 2.300kg of empty weight.

the sentence from Finnish fighter pilot Väinö Pokela, about the Bf-109, its very clear: "It flew like on rails even when shooting."

Whom must i heed, a guy who shot down five enemy aircraft with a Bf-109, or you?:music_whistling:

 

.... You do have a problem with that using your short joystick hardware. Also you're obsessed about that neutral trim setting and neutral doesn't means "high speed cruise" as you want to, it doesn't means in any other aircraft and what we have seen in graphs and papers is it also doesn't in Bf109.

 

My joystick works perfectly on all simulators, ..The problem is not mine.

The Bf-109 is now and was in wartime, perfectly trimmable, it is a historic fact.

I try to show, with the most obvious possible evidence... I hope this work will serve for something.

Edited June 28, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[JG13]

Pilots were advised not to trim it above 463 kmh, not that it couldn't be trimmed for level flight above this speed!

[Buzzles]

Pilots were advised not to trim it above 463 kmh, not that it couldn't be trimmed for level flight above this speed!

 

That's not quite right, it's very clear in the text that the limit was referring to a Buchon, which has some sizable differences, the engine being a big part of that along with the tailplane iirc.

It also states in that text that said limitation was seemingly not required for Black Six, which is an Bf109 rather than a Buchon.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Buzzles

[NineLine]

My joystick works perfectly on all simulators, ..The problem is not mine.

The Bf-109 is now and was in wartime, perfectly trimmable, it is a historic fact.

I try to show, with the most obvious possible evidence... I hope this work will serve for something.

 

Yes, as it is in game, I can trim the aircraft level, but this issue has been addressed, if this isnt about the OP, stop bringing it up please.

[Sokol1_br]

Then a friend who had bought the Warthog offered me his old Cougar Hotas, I bought replacement pots for it, but it didn't last long until the spikes started plaguing it again, but anyway, I really didn't find it's stiffness anywhere practical

 

OT:

 

 

 

You can make this Cougar a good joystick (despite all "hype" about then in early 2000's is a crappy stick in his original form, bad pot', bad gimbal, low quality metal - that "virpilov's" praise - as usual - "far superior"). :)

 

Get one Bauer gimbal base kit: steel, ball bearings (Warthog gimbal is plastic, no bearings) - email then (use English) and 2 "MagREZ" sensors (work equals HALL sensor but are more practical to set) from then, is ~10E each (I think).

 

http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/119037-obzor-igrovogo-komplekta-ot-brd/

 

You will end with a stick mechanics better that the Warthog.

He have option for "long stick", possibility to exchange springs(coils)...

 

 

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

OT:

 

 

 

You can make this Cougar a good joystick (despite all "hype" about then in early 2000's is a crappy stick in his original form, bad pot', bad gimbal, low quality metal - that "virpilov's" praise - as usual - "far superior"). :)

 

Get one Bauer gimbal base kit: steel, ball bearings (Warthog gimbal is plastic, no bearings) - email then (use English) and 2 "MagREZ" sensors (work equals HALL sensor but are more practical to set) from then, is ~10E each (I think).

 

http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/119037-obzor-igrovogo-komplekta-ot-brd/

 

You will end with a stick mechanics better that the Warthog.

He have option for "long stick", possibility to exchange springs(coils)...

 

 

Thx Sokol, but actually I decided on...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144727

 

Looking fwd to test in online :-)