FC3 MIG-29 simulated radar

[JunMcKill]

Hi guys, if it's possible to know what model of radar was simulated for the MIG-29S in DCS?, the problem is that I only see targets at 30 kms distance or close. I though the radar simulated was the N019 / Rubin (NATO: "Slot Back") but for what I know the Rubin have this specifications:

 

A typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target can be detected at 50-70 km and tracked at 40-60 km. If the target is flying below 3,000m reduces the detection range to 40-70 km and tracking range to 30-60km

 

The actual MIG-29S aircraft in DCS is really below this specs!

 

Regards,

 

RuSh

[Valium]

The real MiG-29S has got N019M Topaz radar but I don't know how it looks in game.

[JunMcKill]

The real MiG-29S has got N019M Topaz radar but I don't know how it looks in game.

 

Yeah the Topaz N019M was a N019 update, allowing to engage two targets at the same time with R-77 (in the game is simulated with TWS 2), but the detection ranges in the game are simply below both radars specs.

 

"N019M is an updated version, developed as a response to the compromise of the N-019 radar by a US spy. Tested from 1986, it entered limited production in 1991. Slightly lighter than the N-019 at 350kg. N019 has increased ECM resistance, new software, and a more advanced built-in monitoring system. A new Ts101M computer relieves the processor overload problems of the N019, more than doubling capacity to 400,000 operations per second whilst weighing less, just 19kg, and with doubled MTBF of 1000h compared to the 500h of the Ts100. N019M allows two targets to be engaged by active radar homing missiles simultaneously. Range increased slightly to 80km. Originally intended to be fitted to the existing MiG-29 fleet as an upgrade, about 22 aircraft with N019M are thought to have entered service with the VVS"

[GGTharos]

Are you in look-down? In look-down unfortunately you're going to get a serious performance downgrade.

 

Also, have you checked which PRF you're in? It's possible you've switched to MPRF and significantly impacted head-on detection range.

[JunMcKill]

Are you in look-down? In look-down unfortunately you're going to get a serious performance downgrade.

 

Also, have you checked which PRF you're in? It's possible you've switched to MPRF and significantly impacted head-on detection range.

 

Could be, but I was in ABT and PPS (russian) in the radar, anyway I will make a proper investigation to send you the tacview data and pics.

 

Thanks for your answer GGTharos,

 

Regards,

 

RuSh

[JunMcKill]

You were right GGtharos,

 

- the first test using ABT in BVR on MIG-29S (both aircraft same height), show me the enemy at 57.7kms away

- the second test using PPS in BVR, show me the enemy at 75.4km, but the launch OK (Rmax) for the R-77 was at only 27-30km from the target in hot (SU-27)

 

looks like the previous test I did with the 29S and detect the enemy at 30kms away, was against a MIG-21 that have less RCS than the other aircrafts, or the target was flying below 3000 meters as you said.

 

Thanks!

 

RuSh

Edited July 11, 2015 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

Great, glad you worked it out :-)

[Svend_Dellepude]

Radar off with ECM on is not a good advice pepin.

You will tell everybody on the map about your presence while not being able to detect anybody and not able to build SA, which is hard enough with radar on in the MiG-29.

[Wizard_03]

Radar off with ECM on is not a good advice pepin.

You will tell everybody on the map about your presence while not being able to detect anybody and not able to build SA, which is hard enough with radar on in the MiG-29.

He's absolutely right, ECM will just paint a target on your back at that point. If push with radar off, use your IRST doesn't have the range as the radar, but your silent and you don't have to jump in completely blind.

[Svend_Dellepude]

If it works for you it's fine. I'd still say it's a bad idea.

Radar will burn through your ECM at around 25nm, but i don't think your EOS is gonna pick up anything at that range, and you can't really determine from your RWR if there is 1 or 4 guys coming at you.

But again, if it works for you, its fine with me.

[FSKRipper]

What about if there are more ECM countermeasure? how he know I am the bad guy?

 

ECM on

Radar off

EOS on

and do a good job with the RWR, that's it...

 

after 3/4 of RWR radar emission, radar on but depend of your tactic, also you can stay with EOS only doing a dive and snaking.

 

If you are lucky it may work for one try but most of the times you would find a fast death with such tactics.

 

1. Why they know who is the bad guy jamming around? Communications! A well organized flight/team knows where it's members are and what they do atm.

 

2. Before you even get a contact on your EOS you will take some AMRAAMs in Home on Jam-Mode directly in your face.

 

3. As Svend above already said, you have simply no SA and no idea how many guys are inbound and where they are. Simply imagine 2 of the 4 Eagles leave their radar off...

 

4. Also said by Svend, they will burn through before you even got a hint on your EOS

 

5. Fly high, produce contrails and you got all the attention to be the next kill

 

6. Crouching in the hills with EOS on is an option but don't feel to safe. Everybody expects the MiG-21 pilots there and the look-down ability of the Eagle Radar is not too bad at all.

 

The point is if you have no SA by an AWACS using the SU-27 datalink your chance of surviving your tactics will be extremely low against human Players.

Edited July 12, 2015 by FSKRipper

[Svend_Dellepude]

All That is theory. Do you fight in the 104th? Try do some flights in another servers too...

 

Just say where you hang out and we can test this out in practice. ;):joystick:

[Svend_Dellepude]

All That is theory.

 

It was an invitation to put things into practice. I still think you are giving suicidal advice.

 

Anyway, this thread is about the radar of the MiG-29 and not the EOS or RWR.

[Frostie]

I can't think of much difference in suicide going against four F-15s with MIG radar on and hoping to win at least Pepins idea utilises the only strengths the MiG has over the F-15.

I've used these tactics plenty of times with great success shooting down plenty of squads and 3 ships.

The EOS in DCS when used right is a powerful tool as for the radar it's a bag of..

Edited July 13, 2015 by Frostie

[GGTharos]

When you're mowing the lawn, you're jamming your own radar. And that's modeled.

[FSKRipper]

I can't think of much difference in suicide going against four F-15s with MIG radar on and hoping to win at least Pepins idea utilises the only strengths the MiG has over the F-15.

I've used these tactics plenty of times with great success shooting down plenty of squads and 3 ships.

The EOS in DCS when used right is a powerful tool as for the radar it's a bag of..

 

You will never know how much opponents are incoming with radar off.

 

But I have to agree in one point, Using the EOS when hiding between hills is not a bad idea and I also used this from time to time.

 

But do you really agree that a head on, radar off, ECM on engagement at 3000-30000ft will get you anywhere but in a coffin?

[Wizard_03]

Fact is your Radar is not as good as the F-15s. Now its not worthless and you need it granted, but if you play the F-15s game in BVR your going to lose most of the time, the Radar is just better and he has more SA so he's going in with a tactical advantage radar to radar. So the trick is not to play his game. You have the right Idea, just know your adversary and his capabilities and try and anticipate his moves and Use the advantages that you have.

[Frostie]

You will never know how much opponents are incoming with radar off.

 

But I have to agree in one point, Using the EOS when hiding between hills is not a bad idea and I also used this from time to time.

 

But do you really agree that a head on, radar off, ECM on engagement at 3000-30000ft will get you anywhere but in a coffin?

 

I think Pepin's point is that you do this in a heavy mp environment and certainly don't fly head on against radars, there is a time to use your radar and you shouldn't ignore it but to be stealthy requires radar silence. You'd be surprised how effective and invisible you can be by paying attention to the RWR and EOS whilst using jammers effectively.

 

The MiG in BVR is heavily outmatched the R77 is slower and shorter legged than the 120C plus you don't get a proper TWS to use those qctives effectively. Fighting an intense BVR fight will use up a lot of fuel something the MiG doesn't have a lot of so not ideal if you want to concede the fight.

 

It works in BVR for sure but to take down good pilots there are few options they either need to fix the TWS or you adopt out of the box tactics. And altitude is optional.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Frostie

[Wizard_03]

adopt out of the box tactics.

Yes! cannot put it better myself.

[FSKRipper]

I think Pepin's point is that you do this in a heavy mp environment and certainly don't fly head on against radars, there is a time to use your radar and you shouldn't ignore it but to be stealthy requires radar silence. You'd be surprised how effective and invisible you can be by paying attention to the RWR and EOS whilst using jammers effectively.

 

The MiG in BVR is heavily outmatched the R77 is slower and shorter legged than the 120C plus you don't get a proper TWS to use those qctives effectively. Fighting an intense BVR fight will use up a lot of fuel something the MiG doesn't have a lot of so not ideal if you want to concede the fight.

 

It works in BVR for sure but to take down good pilots there are few options they either need to fix the TWS or you adopt out of the box tactics. And altitude is optional.

 

I can agree with the first part as long as I joined servers where heavy MP environment meant straight team deathmatch but as soon as you encounter organized resistance from a VFW I got buried dozens of times.

Does that mean I had no kills? No.

 

But when flying online my first priority is to stay alive, the second that my teammates stay alive, the third that the mission goal is achieved. From that perspective I used to do it the old way. For sure there are plenty of working hide and assault tactics but from the survival perspective.......:music_whistling: Look at the Mig-21 against modern fighters thread, It's not the matter of scoring hits. The real deal is to dodge the pissed off Eagle Drivers whose buddy was downed a few seconds ago :). When flying blue I can assure you that two Slammers on my plane are especially for those tiny red Prowler imitations, just to keep them busy...

 

Maybe we should switch that to another thread since the OP had the working MiG-29 Radar in mind...

Edited July 13, 2015 by FSKRipper

[Frostie]

We've adopted these tactics against organised VFWs before. One instance was a 6v6 Tomcats, 2 MiG-29s flew high and flanked the fight radar off whilst 4 Flankers engaged the Tomcats head on. The MiGs were able to surprise the Tomcats utilising stealth tactics and reduce the SA of the opponents to a mess.

Granted this is helped by the support of and working with others, but then again if you want to fight against VFW you better have your own.

 

What can be said about the MiG's radar has been said, it's poor but as Pepin points out there are methods to make the MiG more effective.

[FSKRipper]

We've adopted these tactics against organised VFWs before. One instance was a 6v6 Tomcats, 2 MiG-29s flew high and flanked the fight radar off whilst 4 Flankers engaged the Tomcats head on. The MiGs were able to surprise the Tomcats utilising stealth tactics and reduce the SA of the opponents to a mess.

Granted this is helped by the support of and working with others, but then again if you want to fight against VFW you better have your own.

 

What can be said about the MiG's radar has been said, it's poor but as Pepin points out there are methods to make the MiG more effective.

 

Yepp, you said it all and I will sign it. You used coordination among your fighter pilots against another team.

 

The initial discussion with Pepin was from a point of view where he (without any support) is going against an unknown number of enemy fighters with his tactics(1-4?).

 

See:

"What about if there are more ECM countermeasure? how he know I am the bad guy?"

 

This was judged as suicidal by me and some other pilots. If that assumption isn't correct and he works with GCI/AWACS, teammates and voice communications , I would also correct my statements.

Edited July 13, 2015 by FSKRipper

[Frostie]

Like I said pretty much everything in the MiG vs F-15 is suicidal, there is no upper hand from a straight up fight to be had unless you be creative. Pepin suggests a creative way of making use of some powerful tools still suicidal to someone learning but so is everything. But like everything, if learned correctly can be very survivable and this method is also very effective.

[FSKRipper]

Like I said pretty much everything in the MiG vs F-15 is suicidal, there is no upper hand from a straight up fight to be had unless you be creative. Pepin suggests a creative way of making use of some powerful tools still suicidal to someone learning but so is everything. But like everything, if learned correctly can be very survivable and this method is also very effective.

 

So it seems nobody is wrong, nice. BTW do you have a Video, track or Tacview of this 6vs6 of your wing? Would be a great chance to watch and learn. Even I'm not too old to learn :lol:

[Frostie]

BTW do you have a Video, track or Tacview of this 6vs6 of your wing?

Unfortunately not sorry.

 

Just an AAR. It was a really interesting match up.

 

 

First of all, WE WON! 3-0 in rounds. The AIM-54Cs proved to be very dangerous and effective. Even though they did not kill many of us, they pinned us down, badly! We defended from them and got pushed back 50 to 60km If we had some ground assets to defend, they would have been gone in no time. Here's my AAR, round by round.

 

Round 1:

We started from Kerch with them being at Sochi. Before we even started, we saw some A10s , in F11, taking off from Sochi. Apparently there was a bug when I edited the mission without the F-14 mod. The A10 didnt bother us that much, though Case did fire an ER at it.

 

We set up in BOX and our plan was to trash their AIM-54s before we engaged them. As soon as we got Launch Warnings, we did a split-s and extended. We did this 10 times and while doing it, we got pushed back from Gelendzhik to Anapa . But while we maintained our coordination (at least in the elements) the F-14 got more and more disorganized. And eventually some of them ended up alone and we could take them down.

 

Frostie got killed by a Phoenix when he was climbing, but three of us survived.

 

Round 2:

In the second round we added one pilot so we had a 5 vs 5. I led Eagle, a flight of three, and Frostie led the 2-ship Cobra. Same tactics though, Eagle up front, Cobra in tac-trail. This time, the F-14 werent as aggressive as the first flight. They initially engaged us early on at long range, but after some volleys, they stopped and extended. We saw this as an opportunity to press towards their base, and not fall back as much as last time.

 

We had lost the F-14 but we kept going in a comfortable 95% RPM. After a while, we picked up low bandits for 60 km. We were really confused, because they were doing 270-310IAS at low altitude. SITTING DUCKS! I made the call to press and Me, Tek and Case engaged with ERs and I sorted the best I could (mind you they were in a really tight group ) and we each fired.

 

Since we were in spread over 20km long and they were in a bunch, we ended up in a flanking position and I was the only one to be engaged. I dropped fast into the notch and turned back in to fire again. LW again, dropped an ET at them and extended. I see two Phoenixes pass below me, FAST! Very cool sight, due to thier fast speed

 

When I turned in again, I see 4 splashes and I look to my left and I see the fifth splash by Tek. 5 good kills in 10 sec

 

We join up with a bored Cobra flight and head home.

 

Round 3:

As usual, we tried sth different for the final round Everyone had their own suggestions and I decided to go with Frostie's one; Flanking.

 

I first wanted Cobra to go south, feet wet, but Frotie wanted feet dry so Eagle set off due south. Cobra wne angels 12 and flew towards Krymsk area.

 

We encountered three contacts and engaged in stinger. Like the second round, the contacts werent that aggressive and we pressed with our ERs. At 15km, one of the F-14s shot a AIM-54 at "two" (Case) and hit The F-14 went cold and so did I. Tek covered me. But his high angels cloaked him, and the enemy didnt even see him until it was too late. He splashed 2 F-14 in a single attack. We finish off the las F-14 in that group and start looking for the 2 remaining.

 

We pick them up coastal just as we get LW. Cobra is right behind them and starts a pursuit. Me and Tek is down to 73s and all we can do is bait the bandits to let Cobra take them down. I get multiple LWs all the time and I defend. Stupid enough, I get disoriented and I make a hard pull, just to see the water appear in my face, and I crash into the water

 

Shortly after, the bandits are killed. Good Job!

 

 

Great Job everyone! We kept good coordination even though we were defensive and extended alot. Thanks!

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Frostie