AA-Missiles for the Ka-50!

[Dudikoff]

Okay, let's settle this. The DCS Ka-50 doesn't have this feature as the variant that it was developed from never did aswell. And I think that adding it to the current DCS Ka-50 would be unrealistic because it wouldn't represent the real aircraft. That's it.

 

I understand your point of view, but at the same time I don't see you losing anything if those would be added as you don't have to play those missions/campaigns which use them. Especially as there's basically nothing stopping the currently modeled Ka-50 to carry and use those missiles apart from the lack of such a need in the Russian Army (which would then procure those missiles, pylons and paid for a WCS software update if it's even necessary).

 

DCS is after all still a game which makes cuts from the reality and it's ultimately up to the maker of each module to decide what to include with it.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Dudikoff

[WinterH]

This is becoming a trend, and not one I am too fond of.

 

MiG-21 and beam riding missiles : yeah well at least some MiG-21 version did actually use them, and I like using them, however, I'd be fine if they'd be cut. Infact, I do remember LN were intenting to cut it, and Novak saying "I've never seen a Bis with these weapons", but community wanted them in, and they have listened.

 

And then, we will have Sea Eagle anti ship missiles in C-101, which never adopted in active service either, weeell... ok makes the trainer a bit more interesting for some of the community I guess... Again, Aviodev even asked community, and people wanted it.

 

But then, Mirage 2000C will be getting both an anti ship and anti radar missile it seems, and again, it seems these were never used on that particular version.

 

What's next then, I'd like a few Meteor missiles on my MiG-21 please, on triple ejector racks of course, and with optional Tie-fighter lasers may be?

 

Personally, I'd be happy if modules would rather stick with ordnance that is possible in real service, and am not too fond of "lets sauce the module up just a bit" attitude seem to creeping in to development studios.

[NakedSquirrel]

No need for heat seeking missiles when you have enough vodka and vikhr missiles

 

[AlphaOneSix]

If the operational situation changed, they (Apaches) could probably be added as a field mod

 

I guess this depends on what you mean by "field mod", but no, that would not be possible. It would require a pretty big modification to the aircraft, and none of the operators are equipped or trained to use or maintain it.

[Isegrim]

Both fought in 2001.:book:

 

As for this whole thread, please close it already.

 

+1

[Dudikoff]

I guess this depends on what you mean by "field mod", but no, that would not be possible. It would require a pretty big modification to the aircraft, and none of the operators are equipped or trained to use or maintain it.

 

I thought the missiles were available for use on the OH-58D (given all the references)?

 

What's next then, I'd like a few Meteor missiles on my MiG-21 please, on triple ejector racks of course, and with optional Tie-fighter lasers may be?

 

Personally, I'd be happy if modules would rather stick with ordnance that is possible in real service, and am not too fond of "lets sauce the module up just a bit" attitude seem to creeping in to development studios.

 

I understand the fear of unrealistic weapons creeping in, but it's simply not a fair comparison IMHO as there's nothing significant really stopping the Ka-50 from having those missiles installed (still waiting to be proven otherwise).

Edited August 6, 2015 by Dudikoff

[AlphaOneSix]

I thought the missiles were available for use on the OH-58D (given all the references)?

 

I believe that all OH-58D are wired to accept Stingers, though I have no positive proof of this at this time. Quite a few OH-58C helicopters were as well. It's called ATAS for air-to-air Stinger. I have never seen an OH-58D armed with Stingers outside of a testing environment (doesn't mean they don't/didn't exist), but I do know for a fact that many OH-58C helicopters were deployed to Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1990 with ATAS installed and operational.

 

So yes, I am fairly certain that Stingers are available for use on OH-58Ds. But the post was in reference to the AH-64, and that is what I was responding to.

[Stratos]

The problem here is that we're talking about a prototype after all, I know It have seen combat in Chechnya (will really love to read about helo and aircraft ops on that war), but it was a prototype, so everything is hypotetical, cause we're replicating a single airframe with all his faults, not a machine representative of a in series built helicopter. For me, I will love to see more weapon options, for the guys that don't want it, my question is (and it's a sincere question, not a sarcasm one), is not possible to limit in a certain mission/server the weapons the chopper can carry?

[Dudikoff]

So yes, I am fairly certain that Stingers are available for use on OH-58Ds. But the post was in reference to the AH-64, and that is what I was responding to.

 

Yes, I know, but I'm using the OH-58 Army units as an example that the system is/was deployed by the Army and there are maintenance personnel who know how to handle it which could hypothetically be sent together with the missiles to install them on the Apaches if such unlikely operational conditions would require it (e.g. Air Force cover not available, OH-58 units disbanded, enemy operates A2A missile armed helicopters, etc.) which is a same situation when e.g. Russian Army could require such a system for their helicopters.

 

But, the Apache's were just an example as admittedly I'm not aware of the whole procedure required to get the ATAS installed on them in extraordinary circumstances, but there are examples of weapon systems or equipment being rushedly deployed in the theater bypassing the regular procedure for operational service.

 

Regarding the Ka-50, my uninformed opinion would be that potentially only a WCS software update is needed (if some system support is not already inside which would depend on whether the equipment was standardized way before) - e.g. you'd need entries added to recognize the Igla weapon system's ID when installed on the hardpoints and also when the control on the collective is activated to select the hardpoints carrying that system and to activate one of the missiles in the sequence and receive its seeker's input to authorize the launch; also, the WCS would have to present the weapon system name in the HUD and the seeker head position with a circle when it locks onto something. But, this is pretty standard stuff (e.g. as present in the Su-25).

Edited August 6, 2015 by Dudikoff

[CASoldier2014]

This is becoming a trend, and not one I am too fond of.

 

MiG-21 and beam riding missiles : yeah well at least some MiG-21 version did actually use them, and I like using them, however, I'd be fine if they'd be cut. Infact, I do remember LN were intenting to cut it, and Novak saying "I've never seen a Bis with these weapons", but community wanted them in, and they have listened.

 

And then, we will have Sea Eagle anti ship missiles in C-101, which never adopted in active service either, weeell... ok makes the trainer a bit more interesting for some of the community I guess... Again, Aviodev even asked community, and people wanted it.

 

But then, Mirage 2000C will be getting both an anti ship and anti radar missile it seems, and again, it seems these were never used on that particular version.

 

What's next then, I'd like a few Meteor missiles on my MiG-21 please, on triple ejector racks of course, and with optional Tie-fighter lasers may be?

 

Personally, I'd be happy if modules would rather stick with ordnance that is possible in real service, and am not too fond of "lets sauce the module up just a bit" attitude seem to creeping in to development studios.

 

I absolutely agree :thumbup:

[CASoldier2014]

The problem here is that we're talking about a prototype after all, I know It have seen combat in Chechnya (will really love to read about helo and aircraft ops on that war), but it was a prototype, so everything is hypotetical, cause we're replicating a single airframe with all his faults, not a machine representative of a in series built helicopter. For me, I will love to see more weapon options, for the guys that don't want it, my question is (and it's a sincere question, not a sarcasm one), is not possible to limit in a certain mission/server the weapons the chopper can carry?

 

Watch the whole thing. It has some very rare footage.

[CASoldier2014]

I understand the fear of unrealistic weapons creeping in, but it's simply not a fair comparison IMHO as there's nothing significant really stopping the Ka-50 from having those missiles installed (still waiting to be proven otherwise).

 

I really want to prove you otherwise and I don't know if this will mean anything to you, but the Ka-50, unlike the aforementioned aircraft, has NEVER used AAMs (It doesn't have the hardware, the software and etc.). So adding this capability would mean changing the aircraft's cockpit and some avionics which would make it an unrealistic representation of the aircraft. And this is a sim after all..

[Dudikoff]

I really want to prove you otherwise and I don't know if this will mean anything to you, but the Ka-50, unlike the aforementioned aircraft, has NEVER used AAMs (It doesn't have the hardware, the software and etc.). So adding this capability would mean changing the aircraft's cockpit and some avionics which would make it an unrealistic representation of the aircraft. And this is a sim after all..

 

It already has the A2A weapon selector switch on the collective. I'd be very curious which cockpit changes do you see necessary for this except adding (the admittedly unknown) HUD mode for the missiles (which would probably just indicate the seeker head position with a circle when seeker obtains a lock plus the selected weapon name if necessary - don't have the Ka-50 manual in front of me to check if those are indicated on the HUD at all)?

Edited August 6, 2015 by Dudikoff

[CASoldier2014]

It already has the A2A weapon selector switch on the collective. I'd be very curious which cockpit changes do you see necessary for this except adding (the admittedly unknown) HUD mode for the missiles (which would probably just indicate the seeker head position with a circle when seeker obtains a lock plus the selected weapon name)?

 

Yes, but how will you model the 'mysterious' HUD mode if it simply doesn't exist in real life?

[Dudikoff]

Yes, but how will you model the 'mysterious' HUD mode if it simply doesn't exist in real life?

 

The educated guess would be to handle it as simple as it is on the other Soviet/Russian aircraft of the era sharing same or similar equipment set and design cues. It's not like the the basic HUD form changes dramatically when Vikhr missiles, rockets and guns are selected - basically the impact point is calculated and presented (with more handling necessary for Vikhr missiles obviously as the targets are designated manually). So, here, logically, if the missile seeker obtains a lock, the direction of the seeker head would be received by the WCS and presented with a circle or the pipper as e.g. on the Su-25 and the LA indication. The rest of the HUD remains the same as e.g. when rockets are selected (meaning no special handling needed like the target designation for Vikhr or gun zone square for the cannon), just without the impact piper.

 

Besides, I assume ED have contacts in Kamov so I'm sure they could get a pretty good idea on exactly how this HUD mode would look like when the system is supported.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Dudikoff

[CASoldier2014]

The educated guess would be to handle it as simple as it is on the other Soviet/Russian aircraft of the era sharing similar equipment. It's not like the HUD changes dramatically when Vikhr missiles, rockets and guns are selected - basically the impact point is calculated and presented (with more handling necessary for Vikhr missiles obviously). So, here, logically, if the missile seeker obtains a lock, the location would be received by the WCS and presented with the circle as e.g. on the Su-25. The rest of the HUD remains the same as e.g. when rockets are selected, just without the impact piper.

 

We may nerver know.. If you skip to 7:10 on the video that I posted before, you will see soldiers mounting Vikhrs (Two per rack) on the Ka-50, but the problem is that it's a different Ka-50 to this one. It might aswell look something like this:

https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/elberet545/album/166017/view/402621

http://cs919.vkontakte.ru/u16852913/984668/x_b5256edc.jpg

 

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24uBhch1HgI#t=470 you can see 2 Vikhrs at 7:50. But again, it's a different Ka-50. They're even talking about day/night capabilities.

Edited August 7, 2015 by CASoldier2014

[Dudikoff]

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24uBhch1HgI#t=470 you can see IGLAs at 7:50. But again, it's a different Ka-50. They're even talking about day/night capabilities.

 

Nice find, thanks.

[CASoldier2014]

Nice find, thanks.

 

No prob, mate. Apparently that's a Vikhr but only two of the per hardpoint..

Edited August 6, 2015 by CASoldier2014

[Stratos]

Watch the whole thing. It has some very rare footage.

 

amazing video, thanks for sharing!!

[CASoldier2014]

amazing video, thanks for sharing!!

 

:thumbup:

[AlphaOneSix]

I know It have seen combat in Chechnya (will really love to read about helo and aircraft ops on that war),

 

Have you read this? It's quite good.

 

North Caucasus: Problems of Helicopter Support in Mountains

[xaoslaad]

If ED had all the time in the world I'd suggest they have a Reality Tier system.

 

Tier 1: Strict adherence to reality wherever possible. No Grom on MiG-21Bis as an example.

Tier 2: Mild disparities from reality. Groms on MiG-21Bis, Anti-Ship missiles on C-101, Igla's on Ka-50's, etc. Things that seem highly plausible either because they have been tested and shown to be possible, or could 'easily' be made possible.

Tier 3: All kinds of silliness. AIM-54 on F-15C...

 

Then when setting up a server or creating a mission you could set a Reality Tier.

 

But again, only if they had all the time in the world to develop such a system. But they don't, so I'd prefer reality or close to reality...

[CASoldier2014]

Ok, so I'm currently testing some 'new' weapons for the Ka-50. I have a feeling that it would be possible to make a proper mod.

Edited August 7, 2015 by CASoldier2014

[Stratos]

Cannot see the pic, can you please check?

[CASoldier2014]

You should see it now.