CNC by trial and error!

[metalnwood]

DM, I too appreciate the information you have given over the years but you too have to appreciate that everyone is different and not always striving for the same thing.

 

Everyone's time is valuable and anyone going down the CNC route has spent a lot of time and money to do what they are doing. I understand your tag line, from your point of view but you could also say that a set of precise plans is great but you can't do squat without a way of making them a reality.

 

We have some people here making some great panels for themselves and others that might not be 100% accurate but I dont see any complaints about that from anywhere else.

 

I am happy with what I did for myself and personally I wouldn't pay for information because I am happy with the result I have for myself and it already costs enough as it is.

 

You should ask for whatever you think is fair for your time and effort. You have already given a lot of information away for free but you should also respect others that are doing it how they want to do it. I would encourage what people are doing. Sometimes it's best to just say something looks great and nothing else rather than the only thing you say is that the font is wrong and whats the use of doing all that work to get the font wrong.

 

I hope you take my post in the way it was intended :) I am pointing out nothing more than if the people making the panels are happy then we can be happy for them :)

 

Edit. It might be clearer if you were to state that you are indeed selling information and tell people what it costs, maybe in the for sale section. As you can see, some people are not clear if they are receiving criticism or offers of information.

Edited October 1, 2015 by metalnwood

[toxaq]

If you use the wrong font, how will you know what button to push?

[agrasyuk]

I have actually in private offers Anton and other manufacturers of parts advice with they are free to take or disregard.

last we PMed was about me expressing interest joining your private builder Skype session, which I didn't qualify for since you seen me as commercial endevour (oh so many stuff I sold these past 2 years, lol). While you are in your right to have your own criteria for attendies, I'm not sure what advices, you had in mind saying the above.

 

I'm not denying your right for compensation for anything. If you feel you entitled to get compensated for time you spent looking for existing font someone else made, well you entitled to feel that way. I am however entitled to have opinion on what does and what doesnt calls for compensation , what is of interest to me and what isn't. and act accordingly.

 

Knowing first hand what it takes to make drawings in autocad it is something that qualifies for compensation (pending content obviously). Since you have an inside ,closer to the industry then anyone here and have a good refference on hand I'm obviously interested in any plans you might have come up with. This topic came up last March, then again sometime in summer when you complained about someone undisclosed plagiarizing on your work , and now you saying you have dxf files for panels. So any chance to peak at your work? As i said a Screenshot picture. Will show caliber of work you do without jeopardizing you to much.

 

...

he actually NEEDS someone to make panels for him and in exchange he will share his holy grail of panel info.

Well the thing is having reference on hand, while certainly can help , does not automatically translate into product of "holy grail" quality level. So the "holy grailiness" still needs to get proven.

Edited October 2, 2015 by agrasyuk

[Deadman]

Agrasyuk the answers to your questions are in red

last we PMed was about me expressing interest joining your private builder Skype session, which I didn't qualify for since you seen me as commercial endevour (oh so many stuff I sold these past 2 years, lol).

The advise I freely gave you had nothing to do with me extending an invitation to you for a cockpit tour that you mention. My one requirement was not to be a commercial cockpit builder. You have sold parts I gave you the option. You chose to continue to make parts. Your success or lack of is completely your own responsibility. After a significant investment in an FMT It does not seam wise to just give all the information away to your competition does it? Do you really think I would invite any one building cockpits or parts at the time to see the pit?

 

The advice I gave you was that your Landing gear panel was some thing like 6 mm or 1/4 inch to short making it out of scale and unusable to fit in any type of a replica MIP http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1672827&postcount=28

 

Whitch you seam too still have a beef about years later http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2340759&postcount=16

you should try to get over these thing especial when I pm you and did not make any comments about your panel in public. I for some reason actually wanted you to be successful. unfortunately you probably would have made more money working over time.

While you are in your right to have your own criteria for attendies, I'm not sure what advices, you had in mind saying the above. It had nothing to do with the cockpit tour.

 

I'm not denying your right for compensation for anything. If you feel you entitled to get compensated for time you spent looking for existing font someone else made, well you entitled to feel that way. I am however entitled to have opinion on what does and what doesnt calls for compensation , what is of interest to me and what isn't. and act accordingly.

 

Knowing first hand what it takes to make drawings in autocad it is something that qualifies for compensation (pending content obviously). Why is it that you seam to feel that you have any ability to judge my works content as being worthy of compensation?

Since you have an inside ,closer to the industry then anyone here I have no connection to any industry making this accusation is completely false. and have a good refference on hand I have purchase legally through out the years different manuals that have been unclassified dealing with the Aircraft The parts and manuals I have collect have be made with a personal investment.

 

I'm obviously interested in any plans you might have come up with. This topic came up last March, then again sometime in summer when you complained about someone undisclosed plagiarizing on your work ,I did not complain I made a statement of fact persons involved with the community at that time plagiarized (to use (anther's production) without crediting the source)my work it was not drawings.The work was posted on http://deadfrogstudios.com/warthogpit/index.php?title=Main_Page all written correspondence on the site were removed by them. I have no proof but Tiger shark did credit my work after i complained permission to use my material was never given. This total lack of respect for my work and intellectual property made it clear to me that publishing any kind of book was not feasible. I have made plans for the cockpit. The Left,Right and center consoles Replicas will be for sale shortly. and now you saying you have dxf files for panels. Yes I do after countless hour of making 3d models it seam that for some reason your casting doubt on my word.

 

Sounds like your calling me out what are you John Wayne? So any chance to peak at your work? As i said a Screenshot picture. Will show caliber of work you do without jeopardizing you to much.

 

 

Well the thing is having reference on hand, while certainly can help , does not automatically translate into product of "holy grail" quality level. So the "holy grailiness" still needs to get proven.Could you possibly use a more useless description what is your idea of Holly grail panels.Have you actually ever seen a real control panel? when i sell items I sell replicas period.All of the model are not just the faces and text all of the counter sunk areas around switches, for back lighting, and for the PCDS for the back lights on the back of the panels are all so in place.Here are a few JPegs for every one to see you can build a pit once and have it all fit.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Deadman

[Warhog]

This really needs to stop. This forum is here to let cockpit builders exchange information and to get help if needed. There is however a cost for this information/help but it's not monetary. The currency is knowledge and experience based on an informal type of barter system.

 

I need help with electronics and programming. Someone or several people help me. In return, someone needs help with AutoCAD or CNC, I do what I can to help. It's a win-win situation. It's the FREE exchange of information, knowledge and experience. And what happens to someone who has nothing to offer. Stick around and get help. One day you might be able to help someone else.

 

Anything related to the SALE of "whatever" should be immediately relocated to the For Sale forum. That needs to include advertising of any products or services.

 

One more thing, it is something I was told as a kid and I guess it kind of stuck with me over the years... If don't have anything nice to say then "shut the f*ck up"

[ClayM]

Thank you John!

 

Still busy with work. Hopefully get something accomplished this weekend. I switched to the stick fonts as suggested and I'm having a little more difficulty getting good results. I will get dial indicator and confirm Z-axis is working properly. I'll post some pictures of whats happening.

 

Anybody have any luck with Gorton font?

 

Clay

[LynxDK]

ClayM.

 

i dont know how Deep you are engraving, but when i engrave, im not cutting to the desired depth in one go, i let it run through 2-3 times, that way it has time to remove the cutted material, and are not "destroying" the painted edges.

 

Also if you have compressed air blowing onto the object while cutting, helps alot.

 

Engraving with too slow speeds can slo be bad i found out, then rather go a Little faster, and cut over more depths. Hope this helps :)

 

My setting for engraving in CamBam is 250 Feedrate and 0.05mm depth at a time. you could go even less if needed, it depends on your cutter, and also the material.

 

I also found that 15 Degree Engraving Bits, makes a way finer job towards the edges that a 30, or 45 Degree Bit.

 

See this link:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10Pcs-Multi-purpose-0-2mm-15-Degree-CNC-Router-Tool-Engraving-Bits-V-shape-/281397093094?hash=item418492e2e6

[agrasyuk]

DM,

you can put your speculations aside. The beef i have with you is not some panels, it’s one thing only - you talking down on members here. and I will have that same beef next time when it happens. As helpful as you might see yourself it doesn't give you that right.

 

since you brought up my LDG, well, you reply then was exactly same as with my font yesterday "your height is incorrect, but you don't know the correct one, muhhahaha!". Well, I guess it's not entirely unhelpful as this makes me aware that I still need to keep searching for improvement (in case of LDG I later received a picture of real panel with a ruler next to it so I was able to correct the 3% deviation in height I had). just how much respectful those kind of replies are everyone will judge by themselves. the reason I seem to feel that I have ability to judge your work content is simple - everyone and anyone can make a judgment on whether particular item offered is worthy of their money. any one can say "I have the best merchandise", your proven ability to cast epoxy into silicone mold doesn't automatically translate into precise plans. and I didn't get to see any of your CAD work until today. CAD indeed looks very nice, but interesting thing though, looking at your cmsp drawing I can't help but to notice square edges to the lettering. looking at the pictures of actual device I see those edges rounded due to being rotary engraved. so the question is, DM are you sure you used *Blasphemy!* 100% correct font?

 

PS,

you don't need to be shy about your resources. aside of dedication that you obviously have it also would take at least some amount of inside to get something like your trainer before its auctioned to public. remember my question to you "was I not able to find that info because I’m lacking the ability to search the net"? this is not an accusation and I’m not saying you disclosed anything classified, but you do have a collection of proprietary info that in one instance for example normally only rockwell collins would know. so the fact is we are not on a level playing field, which is fine, but still does not give you a right to talk members down.

 

 

John,

I don't entirely agree with your statement. I will say and will be happy to hear both nice and not nice things as long as they are said in respectful manner. interestingly enough I had a short pm conversation about sharing of info and compensation entitlement with another member here. you shared your drawings free of charge with me, I shared the drawings that I’m not too ashamed to show off with you (and got valuable feedback on my CAD work). as you said win-win. but the fact is you didn't have to and I didn't have to, we don't have obligations to each other. I will never told anyone choosing to not disclose particular info. I will however react to disrespect to others.

 

 

Clay,

Gorton font looks close , but I don't think it will get "DM approved" certification :lol:

[ClayM]

Lynx

 

Feed rate 250. I guess that's mm/min? So 10"/min?? I typically run at 30"/min.

 

Also .003" deep with one pass with 60 degree .010" tip cutter.

 

I'll give your routine a try and see what happens.

 

What type of CNC machine are running?

 

Thanks

 

Clay

[LynxDK]

hmm im accually not sure, but yes, i guess its mm/ minute, alltho it looks like it runs fater than that.

 

Those 60 Degrees, i tryed them, and i could never get a fine result... but everything you see engraved in my thread, is done with 15 degree 0.2mm at those speeds... its like the 60 degree takes too much material, and then isnt cutting nice.. i dont know.. but the 15 degree is definately good.

 

The machine ive done this on, is the same as yours, a 4030 CNC.

 

I still have it for small engraving jobs etc. I had a bigger cnc that stopped working, so im waiting for my new High-Z CNC to arrive hopefully late next week, so i can get going Again, but that thing will also be bigger, big enough to cut the MIP in one go :)

Edited October 2, 2015 by LynxDK

[ClayM]

From all the documention I have seen Gorton was the only engravable font that was approved for panel use. I'll supply document number when I get home from work. I have talked to a friend more computer savvy then myself and he said we could make that font if we have samples. The samples are provided in the document. I might give this a go for the hell of it. Personally I would like to have as correct a font as possible but Im certainly not going stop trying to make panels if that doesn't happen.

 

Clay

[metalnwood]

I am just uploading a video to youtube of some rotary engraving I did for a CDU, you can see how it compares to what is going on with yours.

 

I am not using a 60 deg vbit, that will give you awful results IMHO and you can only do stick fonts because of the sharp tip you cannot do proper pocketing without going deep to get the correct overlap for each pass.

 

I am using an engraving bit that I think has something like Lynx's 0.02" rounded edge (actually, pic shows its a flat tip). As soon as thats uploaded I will edit the post and put some pics too. Didnt realise I cant access my pics on the phone while it is uploading..

Edited October 2, 2015 by metalnwood

[metalnwood]

Video taking ages.. Here are some photos, they were taken a long time ago, same with the video otherwise I would have done a nice one..

 

The text is the size it should be for the cdu buttons, to give an idea of scale. It is done in material that is used for rotary engraving. While I normally laser engrave for the cdu keys I wanted to engrave and mill out the keys in one go rather than engrave, move and set it up on the router.

 

You can see the text looks deep, its not too bad, could be not quite as deep but more noticable in the pic.

 

[metalnwood]

Here is the video.

 

Looking at teh gcode, the spindle speed is 12000 and feed is 720mm/min. Although because it is such a start stop thing, and because of the accelleration settings it might never get to that speed. Hard to know what speeds its actually going at.

 

[LynxDK]

Yea thats right, since the 4030 cnc has a slow spindle motor, it need to run at max All the time, allmost no matter what you do. 11000 RPM :)

 

Tour right Metal... They are flat in the pic, but just checked, mine are also flat...

[ClayM]

Thanks for the info! I have also found that I need to run spindle full speed all the time which seems to work OK.

 

Metal

 

Nice Font!

 

Clay

[ClayM]

I'm sure this has brought up somewhere else in this forum but I came across some useful info (maybe).

 

MS-18012B

 

Google it. I think I found it on everyspec?? I would like to get some opinions on it please. Does this even apply to our application? I was going to use it as a guideline for my panels.

 

Thanks

 

Clay

[Warhog]

I think there may be some misunderstanding as to the selection of cutters and what tip and angles are all about.

 

I suggest a visit to this web site. It may shed some light on the proper selection of engraving cutters.

http://www.2linc.com/

 

Clay, I was wondering if you had been cutting any other materials with your engraving bits? Often dull bits will cause poor cutting of material. When cutting engraving plastic there is no need to cut deep or make multiple passes. At high spindle speeds you can cut at least 30in/min. with no problems. The only limit will be the point of missed steps. Then you need to reduce feed rates. Post some pics of the problem.

 

BTW, if you intend to cut acrylic the idea of blowing cold air on the cutter is worthwhile looking at. It will minimize temps that cause melting. More important though is to use 2 flute end mills, a slower spindle speed and a fast feed rate. The less time a cutter is in contact in one place the better the temps will be.

 

@MnW - liked the video. Good idea to show what to expect.:thumbup:

 

John

[Deadman]

Anton sounds like you have a lot a hate there buddy.

DM,

you can put your speculations aside. The beef i have with you is not some panels, it’s one thing only - you talking down on members here. and I will have that same beef next time when it happens. As helpful as you might see yourself it doesn't give you that right. That is your opinion you have said it finally why could you have not just said so in the first place ? Must suck to live in fear. No we are in your never ending list of grievance and just down to a I hate you thing and not any else get over it and grow up. you have your opinion I have mine you live in the states it happens. If your going to preach respect you might want to re read some of thing you have written and thing about it not exactly coming over as the mature respectful defender of the people here.

CAD indeed looks very nice, but interesting thing though, looking at your cmsp drawing I can't help but to notice square edges to the lettering. looking at the pictures of actual device I see those edges rounded due to being rotary engraved. so the question is, DM are you sure you used *Blasphemy!* 100% correct font? Do you have a picture I think your just trolling.Maybe you just confusing the CMSP (EWMU) with another panel it happens.wait here are some of my panel taken now just for you.

This panel is not (RE) it is a Photo etch real panel I know you don't have much experience but this font is nothing like MS33558 squashed 20 percent

 

 

 

 

 

PS,

you don't need to be shy about your resources. aside of dedication that you obviously have it also would take at least some amount of inside to get something like your trainer before its auctioned to public. You just don't read well It was on the net that is where i found it remember my question to you "was I not able to find that info because I’m lacking the ability to search the net"? I answer the question it is not posted for free on the net you need to purchase books . this is not an accusation and I’m not saying you disclosed anything classified, but you do have a collection of proprietary info that in one instance for example normally only rockwell collins would know. so the fact is we are not on a level playing field,Ya OK i will admit it I am a evil genius which is fine, but still does not give you a right to talk members down.You are imagining things!!

No not true at all I just know what to look for there was an A-10 trainer just for sale on FB think it went for $13,000 to 17,000 you should have seen

 

 

I will however react to disrespect to others.Really what are you Superman or just deranged? We are big boys here and can fend for our selves. If we ever meet I will get you a beer so you can wash that bad taste out of your mouth .

 

 

Clay,

Gorton font looks close , but I don't think it will get "DM approved" certification :lol: You are a funny guy oh wow funny

Edited October 6, 2015 by Deadman

[ClayM]

Some examples

 

 

Top line .001" per pass to .003" depth

next .002" .004" depth

next .003" .003" depth

next .001" .004" depth

next .002" .005" depth

 

.010" tip 60 degree cutter. RomanS font .110" high.

 

Looks to be all kinds of problems here. The B looks almost like an eight!

 

 

Same cutter but pocketing instead of engraving. diffirent font

 

cut at 002", 003", 004" depth. Even at .002 depth the island in the A is almost gone.

 

 

Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sharp cutter maybe has 3 hours on rowmark only.

 

Lots of trial and error here!

 

Clay

[metalnwood]

On the 'B', the cut looks ok. You say it looks like an 8 because of the rounded over corner at the top left and top bottom.

 

You could try making a rectangle that has four square corners (obviously!) that is the same height and width of the B and see how that engraves.

 

I dont think your cutter is the issue but a machine/software setting probably. Lets see if you get rounded off corners and which corners. It could indicate bad backlash or accelleration parameters. If you are using mach 3 you might have the constant velocity interfereing where it will round off a corner instead of making it sqaure so that the machine isnt making sudden jerky movements etc.

 

 

BTW, on the second one it looks like the depth is getting greater at the bottom. This is most likely because the surface was not completely flat or your rowmark was not down flat against your surface. Secondly, perhaps your bit was not tight and moving out of the collett as you engrave but thats more likely to happen with heavy cuts.

 

Otherwise a mechanical issue and perhaps your Z was missing steps.. Unfortunately, there are lots of possibilities..

Edited October 3, 2015 by metalnwood

[ClayM]

Metal

 

Thanks!

 

Sorry about the pic. All I have is my phone.

 

 

Bottom line rectangles cut first 30"/min. I do not have CV selected in Mach3. Size is .110" by .075".

Entry point of cutter is almost square but other corners are clearly rounded off.

 

Top line all same settings except feedrate at 10"/min. Picture does not show well but there are now clean square corners. Looks much better!

 

I had always assumed Mach3 changed feed rate during angular changes. When I set feed rate at 30"/min the feed rate display in Mach3 is always varying. I'll do more research on Mach3.

 

Thank you for the advice!

 

Also on my previous post you said it looks like the cut gets deeper toward the bottom on the second example. Your right it does. .002" , .003" , .004". Just testing out diffarent cut depths.

 

Not looking forward to cutting at 10" a minute though.

 

Thanks

 

Clay

[LynxDK]

And you have a Plate under the piece your cutting that you have leveled of so its flat according to the machine?

[ClayM]

You bet Lynx!

 

 

Entire back covered with two sided tape. Probably time for another pass over it but with a .125" endmill it takes a long time!

 

Clay

[Warhog]

I think its time to put a dial indicator on your x axis and check it both directions. Also on your Z axis. This sure looks like a mechanical issue. Its definitely not your cutters or the font your using and its 95% not a software issue. However, until you get some accurate measurements as to what the machine is really doing, its all speculation. So check that first.

 

Can you fit 3/8" endmills in that collet. It is a real pain to level anything properly with a small diameter endmill. Also, you really don't need a backboard that size. Its huge compared to anything your likely to engrave. It will also take less time to level it.:smilewink:

Edited October 4, 2015 by Warhog