I need help and advice from an experienced MiG-21 pilot

[Chimango]

I've been flying WW2 and Korea war planes for 9 years, but radars and missiles stuff is absolutely new to me and i'm clueless. So, the first plane of this kind i got is the MiG21bis...yeah i know, not the best one for beginners.

 

It's been a frustrating week for me. After learning the basics about MiG-21 I joined online servers like 104th three times already and was killed all those times, the worse part is i never knew what hit me cause i've never been able to see an enemy plane actually (DCS sucks at this IMO, very difficult to find a plane even at 1 mile away or less). I have no idea what to do. I can´t see contacts, i don´t seem to find the best way to use the RWR, i can´t realize when a missile is shot at me or even where to go...so i'm a total rookie.

 

Is there any experienced MiG-21 pilot willing to take a total noob under his wing and teach him the basics during combat in online servers? I need to learn and practice the best tactics and combat envelope by actually being there, not by reading or watching videos only, i've done that already and still can´t do much.

 

If someone wants to help, i'll join TS. I speak spanish and english.

 

Thank you!

[Chann3l]

Being fairly new to the mig 21 myself and only getting my first f15 kill online the other day, I may not be of that much help, though I can fly the thing pretty damn well. The rwr only gives direction it does not give distance or tell you what type of threat it is, but due to the angle of detection, if say you have a threat in front of you, you can pull up on the stick and a decent angle and see if the rwr is still going crazy. If so, then it's most likely an airborne threat, if not it is probably a SAM. The mig21 also relies heavily on AWACS for guidance which most online missions don't have configured for the mig. What you can do, is fly to the bullseye, stay low and keep radar off until something comes up on the rwr or just periodically. Visual detection is your best bet though at which point you can maneuver around the target, turn on radar, and get a lock. Long range engagements against f15s are not going to go well.

[PiedDroit]

if say you have a threat in front of you, you can pull up on the stick and a decent angle and see if the rwr is still going crazy.

Better turn 90°, then bank the aircraft to estimate the altitude ;)

This way you won't bleed your energy and you'll be beaming the threat at the same time.

 

@Chimango, you need to proceed in order. If I assume you never used the MiG, I'd do the following:

- Training missions from DCS to learn the systems (in "Training")

- Target practice to get used to the weapon system (in missions, MiG-21)

 

Once you're confortable shooting those missiles in the medium or hard target practice, try single player missions or the built-in campaign.

The campaign "Gardians of the Caucasus" is also very well done and will put you directly into action, I recommend it.

 

Make sure to download TacView software in order to review your flights, this will help you a lot I think (this way you'll see why you missed your shots, where the target went when you lost sight, where it shot you from).

 

Playing online won't help you learning, it will help you hone your skills but if you're barely starting you'll be dead meat.

 

Good luck!

Edited September 15, 2015 by PiedDroit

[Hadwell]

first things first.. IFF.... then IFF.... then.... IFF.... just IFF... make sure to IFF, then IFF...

 

Once you're clint eastwood on the missile quick draw, then you start playing online...

 

playing offline won't help you learn how real human beings fly compared to the AI, gotta play online in order to get good at playing online.

 

use ambush tactics.. as soon as your rwr goes off or you pick up something on the radar more than 12km away, dive into a valley or to the base of a mountain and get out of line of sight (make your rwr stop beeping by putting something between you and him) for long enough that he's for sure within 12km, then pop up and launch an R3R or RS2-US. or stay in the valley and let him pass in front of you, and hit him with any other missile..

 

as for dogfighting, I suggest going on the Virtual Aerobatics server, and following around planes as or more manoeuvrable than yours and figuring out how to stay behind them, then you "might" survive an actual fight... but not often...

 

one thing to remember is the more you fly the better you get, being scared or thinking you're going to offend someone by sucking isn't going to make you better.

 

and IFF...

Edited September 15, 2015 by Hadwell

[QuiGon]

Picking the MiG-21 for the introduction to BVR fighting with radars and missles is a tough choice. The big problem about the MiG-21 is that it provides very bad situational awareness.

The most important reason for this is the VERY basic RWR which doesn't tell you much compared to more modern (western) RWRs, which can provide a pretty good (although often incomplete) picture of the situation. They tell you the exact direction and type (air or ground threat and even which model) of radar contacts and what they're doing (searching, locking, shooting). The Fishbed RWR on the other hand just tells you there is some kind of radar between 12 and 3 o'clock, but not the type, model or number and if you get locked you even loose the direction of the radar threat.

 

The second reason is the limited radar.

 

 

So yeah, you're at a big disadvantage to the FC3 fighters and I haven't even mentioned the armament of the MiG-21.

 

Having said all this I have to say that I really love this bird and prefer to fly it over any of the FC3 aircraft by far. ;)

[FeistyLemur]

Picking the MiG-21 for the introduction to BVR fighting with radars and missles is a tough choice. The big problem about the MiG-21 is that it provides very bad situational awareness.

The most important reason for this is the VERY basic RWR which doesn't tell you much compared to more modern (western) RWRs, which can provide a pretty good (although often incomplete) picture of the situation. They tell you the exact direction and type (air or ground threat and even which model) of radar contacts and what they're doing (searching, locking, shooting). The Fishbed RWR on the other hand just tells you there is some kind of radar between 12 and 3 o'clock, but not the type, model or number and if you get locked you even loose the direction of the radar threat.

 

The second reason is the limited radar.

 

 

So yeah, you're at a big disadvantage to the FC3 fighters and I haven't even mentioned the armament of the MiG-21.

 

Having said all this I have to say that I really love this bird and prefer to fly it over any of the FC3 aircraft by far. ;)

 

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And what virtually kills you can too.

 

For what it's worth it's extremely rewarding to feel your competency level start to improve in the mig21 when you start from scratch in it.

 

Fond memories of rolling it off the edge of the tarmac into the grass to get stuck and not even being able to figure out how to taxi the first time I did the start up tutorial and was like, screw this I'm taking off now. Or having my pitot tube freeze because the tutorial neglected to mention the pitot tube heat switches.

[Chann3l]

Picking the MiG-21 for the introduction to BVR fighting with radars and missles is a tough choice. The big problem about the MiG-21 is that it provides very bad situational awareness.

The most important reason for this is the VERY basic RWR which doesn't tell you much compared to more modern (western) RWRs, which can provide a pretty good (although often incomplete) picture of the situation. They tell you the exact direction and type (air or ground threat and even which model) of radar contacts and what they're doing (searching, locking, shooting). The Fishbed RWR on the other hand just tells you there is some kind of radar between 12 and 3 o'clock, but not the type, model or number and if you get locked you even loose the direction of the radar threat.

 

The second reason is the limited radar.

 

 

So yeah, you're at a big disadvantage to the FC3 fighters and I haven't even mentioned the armament of the MiG-21.

 

Having said all this I have to say that I really love this bird and prefer to fly it over any of the FC3 aircraft by far. ;)

 

Now that I've gotten used it I find the limited radar isn't an issue so long as you stick to ambush tactics. Got 2 more kills on 104th yesterday just by staying low and using my eyes and rwr. Got a visual turned on the radar, locked the f15 and pulled vertical as he was right above me, had launch Auth almost immediately due to the short range and he didn't even see it coming. It definitely has its short comings but to me at least, it's far more rewarding.

[Art-J]

Flying this badly outdated plane against human-controlled Eagles and Flankers is not walk in the park even for experienced -21 pilots, let alone for new ones.

 

It can be done and it's being done, though. Read Hadwell's tips above and watch his recordings posted in "MiG-21 vs modern fighters" thread (actually, watch everything posted in that thread) to get basic idea how people do it.

[scaflight]

It's fairly evident OP seeks someone to fly with and learn from. That's valuable in a way that reading and watching videos isn't, of course. And in many ways it's a far better way to play on MP servers. Having a wingman is important and I am 100% sure that very few of the many available tactics are used, simply because people are lonewolfing it. We need to use anything we can to lure an F-15 down from his 35k ft safety, and baiting is a very sound method. The SA doesn't get any worse by having more people, that's for sure.

[Chimango]

Thank you very much guys from all the tips and the answers, very interesting and those added to the ones i read in "MiG-21 vs modern fighters" are very helpful.

 

Maybe my English is a bit confusing or i didn´t explain myself well: I've done all what you mention; reading posts, watching tutorials, practicing with systems, training missions in medium and hard difficulty...etc.

 

My main problem seems to be the visuals (i'm having terrible time trying to spot anything at all in DCS unless i use label mod); and also understanding how the modern "radar n' missiles" tactics and environment works.

 

What i'm looking for is an experienced MiG-21 pilot who is willing to take me with him to online servers so i can learn from actual action. I put it this way: when i was a teenager i went to an institute so i could learn the english language here at home in Argentina. Years later i went to London, being there i learned more English in a month than what i learned in the institute for 2 years. Ok, that's what i meant and i think scaflight got my point. You learn a lot more and faster during practice than during theory.

 

Anyone? I promise i learn fast! :pilotfly:

 

I'll pair attention to my PM's just in case.

 

Thanks a lot!

[PiedDroit]

If you've done everything already then we are almost at the same point then, I'm afraid I can't help you much.

My A2A experience is mostly WW2, I did very little A2A within DCS.

 

Basically I'm doing (trying) what Hadwell said, it sums it up very well.

For the visuals, make sure you don't have anti aliasing enabled as other AC blend easily in the sky or in the ground.

[Darkwolf]

My computer is dead and i haz 12hours/day at work this month so i cannot help immediately.

 

 

Ere is the thing to start with : mig21 is no bvr. Its radar is just here to shoot he missile. . it could eventually be used to scan, but only in gen3 fighter battle. In modern combat, just keep it as a fire control systm, not a sensor. So you are down to visual search, then once you find something, start your radar, lock and shoot. Using radar to detect is absolutely dangerous in gen4 environnement. If you have information on a contact, you can use it to spot it, but only if you are sure you are pointing the radar at something you intent to fire rapidly.

 

Alone, mig21 shall be used as a ambush fighter. As a squdron it can easily be used as a frontline fighter with appropriate techniques.

[Darkwolf]

Fightinh f86 and hawks are a good start.

[QuiGon]

About visually spotting enemies: It is indeed way more difficult to spot other ac (or ground units) than it is IRL. That issue will be addressed in DCS World 2 (or already in 1.5), because planes (and ground units) will be replaced by some kind of texture at certain distances, that makes it easier to spot them. This feature will be optional.

[PiedDroit]

As the OP I'd quite interested to know how experienced guys manage to keep their wingman when there's no datalink and poor visibility.

What I was doing with the SU-25 was to use a bulls eye wpt to estimate position and try to meet on a radial, but sometimes this would take ages to get the formation back.

Hopefully we can use the radar to find each other.

@Chimango, next time I go 104th I can send you a PM, I go there rarely though.

That'd be interesting to try.

[scaflight]

As the OP I'd quite interested to know how experienced guys manage to keep their wingman when there's no datalink and poor visibility.

What I was doing with the SU-25 was to use a bulls eye wpt to estimate position and try to meet on a radial, but sometimes this would take ages to get the formation back.

Hopefully we can use the radar to find each other.

@Chimango, next time I go 104th I can send you a PM, I go there rarely though.

That'd be interesting to try.

 

Operating in a limited area with obvious topographical features is very handy. A nearby airfield beacon serves to give you decent range estimates, and with heading information to that beacon you can work out the trigonometry of it relatively quickly. In my experience with my friends, this system works slightly more often than it doesn't :)

 

Having knowledge of, and assigning names or codes to, individual valleys sounds almost excessive, but it is exactly what you need when you go to using terrain in an offensive capacity as part of ambushes. Local knowledge is an incredible asset, especially if you want to find each other.

 

Personally I can't rely on visuals outside of 2-3km in the Fishbed, in regards to keeping eyes on wingman and so forth. And in a bait and switch scenario the two of you will operate too far apart to have any hope of eyeing each other. I hope DCS 2 will vastly improve the situation when it comes to spotting.

[PiedDroit]

Having knowledge of, and assigning names or codes to, individual valleys sounds almost excessive, but it is exactly what you need when you go to using terrain in an offensive capacity as part of ambushes. Local knowledge is an incredible asset, especially if you want to find each other.

Very good advice, thanks :thumbup:

[FeistyLemur]

In addition to a formation flying mission someone made and listed here, I've found the basic cold start mission out of Nalchik is actually quite useful for formation and group finding practice. It has a group of 2 mig21 which takes off roughly the same time as you and then flies back and forth across the map till they run out of fuel and land.

 

I find it useful for finding them with radar and practicing catching up and entering formation with them, with a bit of cheating using the F10 map since they are AI and can't tell you where they are or coordinate with you.

[Chimango]

Thank you very much for all the tips and help, and also the offer to go online! A lot of knowledge coming from you guys.

 

I will join you Darkwolf, spasibo :thumbup:

 

But i'm ver happy to tell you that...i got my first online kill today! I'm sure is not any special for the experienced ones cause the guy wasn´t defending much and probably focused on ground pounding, but it made me really happy. A combination of R60M and guns; i had him locked with R3R but as he hit the deck behind some hills i lost it, so i went IR and with the help of GCI and a bit of luck found him and got him...oh, and it was a MiG-21 too, fratricide!

 

I find the best server for now until i get more experience is the <51> Korea 1965 server, facing Sabres/MiG15s, Hawks and MiG-21s; loving it.

 

When you watch the video you will see a lot of mistakes probably, i will be glad to listen to any recommendations you have. I will post the video later on.

 

:pilotfly:

[Frostie]

Best way to keep with your wingman is not to solely rely on visuals but constantly communicate headings, extend on identical headings and picture your relevant positions, you should get a general idea of where your wingman is be it left or right of you and after extending turn into each other to close the space to allow visuals on each other to be acquired. Learning to get a feel for timing is crucial, you will then understand how much separation you have, if he extends and you continue to press realise that difference so when he turns back in you have an estimation on how much separation there is.

Being able to support each other doesn't necessarily require visual on each other just good SA and communication does the trick.

[Chimango]

Finally! Got my first one. Was in <51> Korea 1965 which is great for learning cause you only go up against 21s, 15s, Sabres and Hawks.

 

Followed GCI indications and got a lock on him. I lost the radar lock with the R3R and then i had a hell of a time trying to find and SPOT that MiG21, but finally i got the guy and my first online kill. As i said on previous post i know is not big deal for experienced pilots, but i'm new not only to the MiG-21 but also to radars and missiles, i flew WW2 and KTO stuff for 9 years. The guy probably didn´t know i was after him, he was busy ground pounding, IMO. Anyway, the first kill, so i'm glad.

 

 

Question; did i lose contact because he hit the deck and my radar lost him or becuase the nose of mi MiG was pointing too low towards him?

[Nerd1000]

Finally! Got my first one. Was in <51> Korea 1965 which is great for learning cause you only go up against 21s, 15s, Sabres and Hawks.

 

Followed GCI indications and got a lock on him. I lost the radar lock with the R3R and then i had a hell of a time trying to find and SPOT that MiG21, but finally i got the guy and my first online kill. As i said on previous post i know is not big deal for experienced pilots, but i'm new not only to the MiG-21 but also to radars and missiles, i flew WW2 and KTO stuff for 9 years. The guy probably didn´t know i was after him, he was busy ground pounding, IMO. Anyway, the first kill, so i'm glad.

 

 

Question; did i lose contact because he hit the deck and my radar lost him or becuase the nose of mi MiG was pointing too low towards him?

 

Looks like you lost lock because he flew behind a hill. The radar can see upwards pretty well, but it has difficulty looking downwards and can easily lose contacts in ground clutter, and of course nothing can see through a mountain.

 

Speaking of which, when you're flying at low level you should set the middle switch on the radar panel to the centre position. It damps out some of that clutter at the bottom of the radar screen so that you can see contacts better at close range. The up position goes a little further by angling the entire search pattern up 1.5 degrees, which is useful if you're flying very low and seeing clutter near the top of the screen.

[NeilWillis]

Finally! Got my first one. Was in <51> Korea 1965 which is great for learning cause you only go up against 21s, 15s, Sabres and Hawks.

 

 

Considering the Hawk didn't materialise until 1976, that's pretty good going. Excellent that you're getting to grips with the MiG. Definitely rewarding isn't it.

[scaflight]

Finally! Got my first one. Was in <51> Korea 1965 which is great for learning cause you only go up against 21s, 15s, Sabres and Hawks.

 

Followed GCI indications and got a lock on him. I lost the radar lock with the R3R and then i had a hell of a time trying to find and SPOT that MiG21, but finally i got the guy and my first online kill. As i said on previous post i know is not big deal for experienced pilots, but i'm new not only to the MiG-21 but also to radars and missiles, i flew WW2 and KTO stuff for 9 years. The guy probably didn´t know i was after him, he was busy ground pounding, IMO. Anyway, the first kill, so i'm glad.

 

 

Question; did i lose contact because he hit the deck and my radar lost him or becuase the nose of mi MiG was pointing too low towards him?

 

That is really nice. :) Congratulations.

 

When you're in that pursuit, you pull a lot on the stick to get a lead for the IR seeker, but then you let go and you drop low again. When repeated over and over, this kind of oscillation will only help you push beyond max AoA when you are in a proper turning dogfight. And it's frustrating, of course, which can make you slip up in other ways. I'd recommend you to practise this well, because the fellow flew pretty straight and shouldn't have caused you any problems.

If you feel that your joystick isn't letting you do these sorts of fine changes, the axis tuner in the control options is one way of solving it. Personally I wouldn't dabble with that, and just leave it perfectly linear the way it is. :)

 

A second piece of advice concerns your own survival. You spend a lot of time making sure the fellow goes down. When you add the Mig's patented HereIAm© Afterburner effect, the explosions of missiles in the dogfight, -and- the multiple AA shooting up at your target, I think you could quickly attract a lot of attention. Extend a little bit when you feel he's damaged; he can't maneuver for shit, so you can put your head back on the swivel it's meant to be on and regain (the limited) situational awareness.

 

Ground clutter setting on radar was already mentioned. Incredibly useful. I didn't see that you did an IFF check on him, but I could've missed that.

[Chimango]

Your comments guys were all spot on.

 

@Nerd1000: Thx for your advice, i will do that. And yes, that is what i thaught, lost him behind a hill.

 

@Neil: Yes, it is rewarding, thx mate.

 

@Scaflight: Regarding the oscillations in my pursue with IR you are spot on, the problem is i just got a Saitek X-52 pro after using just a Saitek EVO for 9 years (a deadly joystick when you don´t have to use too many buttons, DEADLY, check my MiG15 dogfight videos :D ) , so i'm getting used to the joystick sensitivity and have not set the curves well yet; i will check what are the best curve settings for my X52 under DCS and i hope i can do smooth turns and pursues then.

I didn´t IFF, you are right. The reason is by then we were the only 2 planes flying there, so no need for IFF. I've noticed the big smoke you mention, i will take care of that. BTW the AAA was shooting at me, i was above his positions and he attacked his own by mistake.

 

Thank you again for your advice.