M2000 vs Mig-21

[Zomba]

More variety will always be good. It will make the environment just that much more challenging.

[pyromaniac4002]

The Mirage III is the French delta wing you're looking for when it comes to the matchup with the MiG-21. And even without the 2000's 4th-gen goodies, the combat experience of the IAF in the Six Day War would suggest the Mirage had the Fishbed's number pretty damn well.

 

The 2000C should match up pretty similarly as the FC3 fighters do with the MiG-21, it'll just be a lot more awesome with a full DCS-level module.

[scaflight]

Whether the M2000C-RDI is a good match in equal dogfighting conditions for the Mig-21 remains to be seen. The Fishbed retains some extreme maneuvering capabilities at low speeds where, I speculate, the M2000's FBW system may serve to restrain its pilot. Personally I can't wait to explore the limitations of the M2000.

[NakedSquirrel]

The Mig-21 is still pretty outclassed by the Mirage 2000, definitely. I think the Mirage III and the Mirage 2000 get confused sometimes on the forums. The Mirage III is a more reasonable opponent vs the Mig-21. The Mig21 is a few years behind in technology vs the 2000. It was a little less maneuverable and slower than even the Mirage III, and the Mirage 2000 has normal thrust (without afterburner) that is equivalent to the amount of thrust the Mirage III can produce with afterburner.

 

With that... It's still going to be a fun opponent to dogfight with in the Mig-21. Not because it's easy to shoot down, but because it's satisfying to get a kill on a superior aircraft :)

 

You can shoot anything down if you hit it!

 

It will be really difficult to beat a Mirage 2000 1 v 1, but using it's weaknesses against it, you might be able to shoot a few down here and there (similar to fighting FC3 aircraft), but it either takes a amazing luck or really good coordination with a good wingman to do it.

 

 

Out, I'm going to open a topic for Sabre vs. MiG-21, and another one for P-51 vs. MiG-15.

Makes as much sense as this one :D

 

Sabre vs Mig-21 is about the same as an F-4 Phantom vs a Mig-17, although I think the combat can be even more dicey if you give the Sabre missiles :thumbup:

[OnlyforDCS]

A lot of people here are writing some pretty strange things about the Mig21Bis that have absolutely nothing to do with how the module behaves when I fly it. Also love the FBW comments of the Mirage, as if FBW is some kind of magic win button....Ahhh the internet, everyone is right and evidence be damned....gotta love it. ;)

Edited September 29, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Farlander]

Seriously......

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2481877&postcount=52

 

 

 

Another common reading in this sub-forum... and another big mistake!

M2000 is a pure delta, MiG-21 has a horizontal tail plane => very different aerodynamics.

 

Actually, take a look from above at the M2000, MiG-21 and... F-16.

Now which two aircraft have a similar profile? ...... Surprise!

Yet I don't see people comparing the 21 and 16 for they have similar shapes...

 

To be fair.. The mirage is going to be the closest contender we have to the mig-21. That's why its being brought up..

 

And, just for your informaton, there has been a delta wing MiG-21 ;) And the change in flight performance was not that big as far as i know. It was mostly dropped because of increased take off run and a few other factors. However the mirage is built negatively unstable, so it will like to get tossed around more... Hopefully for the better...

[Moos_tachu]

Also love the FBW comments of the Mirage, as if FBW is some kind of magic win button....

 

FBW is not magic, but it does make a huge difference.

Interesting reading, in case you missed it:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2477486&postcount=14

 

To be fair.. The mirage is going to be the closest contender we have to the mig-21. That's why its being brought up..

 

Then why not the F-86? Just as close imho...

 

And, just for your informaton, there has been a delta wing MiG-21 ;)

 

... and a delta wing F-16 (the "F-16 XL") ;)

[SFC Tako]

Me getting lucky on the subject. This of course can't be considered serious aerodynamic research but as you can see, the AI-Mirage2000 is quite a handful. And I don't want to do this again, you can only have so much luck :)

[OnlyforDCS]

 

 

Then why not the F-86? Just as close imho...

 

 

 

 

This post makes me believe that you have not flown the DCS Mig 21 Bis. Im not disputing that the M2000C is a superior fighter, but this is mainly due to superior avionics and much better weapons and radar. (and yes, the FBW. Without FBW the Mirage would be virtually unflyable) However in a guns only fight I think the Bis would give the Mirage a run for it's money. A lot of people believe that the Mig21 can only go fast and is a very poor fighter, however there are countless real world accounts of Mig21's handling in regimes it was not really designed for. The air-frame is very capable and in a good pilot's hands deadly. It's the most produced combat aircraft in history for a good reason. (1959 - 1985 in all its variants).

Edited September 29, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Farlander]

 

Then why not the F-86? Just as close imho...

 

 

Because we have already done that?

[mongol-29]

An old saying from the wars in the middle East from the pilots of the MiG-21 had seen a Mirage don't get a turn (in Russian it rhymes), it belonged to the Mirage 3, but M2K is much better

[mattebubben]

It's the most produced combat aircraft in history for a good reason. (1959 - 1985 in all its variants).

 

 

... but its not the most produced combat aircraft...

 

Its the most produced supersonic aircraft

 

But not the most produced combat aircraft.

 

If you count the J-7 you get to around 14.000 mig 21 variants built.

 

There where 18.000 mig 15s

 

But the most produced combat aircraft would be

the 36.000 Il2s and 35.000 Bf 109s built during ww2.

 

So the mig 21 is not the most produced combat aircraft in history.

 

And also a large reason for that was pricing and availability since the majority of Mig-21 users would probably rather had Western aircraft like the F-4,F-5 Mirage 3 or Saab J35 instead if they could have gotten them in the same numbers and for the same price (if politics had not been a factor)

 

The Mig-21 was the major fighter of the Eastern block / Asia mostly due to politics and logistics but not because it was the best fighter.

 

Dont get me wrong the Mig-21 is a great airframe but not the best... It had alot of problems.

[OnlyforDCS]

You are correct, the most produced supersonic fighter. My bad. Most of the problems you are referring to though had already been solved with the Bis version, although the high speed landing issues remain.

 

Also, nowhere did I claim that the Mig is the best fighter, just that it usually gets dismissed out of hand because it is such an old air-frame when clearly it is still very capable.

Edited September 29, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Brisse]

I have been shot down by Mustang's (!) and Sabre's while flying the MiG-21bis, and I know decent MiG pilots can get kills on F-15's under the right circumstances. So what does all this tell us? We will definitely see Mirage's get shot down by MiG-21bis from time to time, but that doesn't mean the Mirage isn't the superior aircraft.

[Quent]

The Mirage 2000 series of aircrafts is superior in every way to a MiG-21. Now if we're speaking of pure aerobatics and flight capabilities =>

 

 

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a really long flight autonomy thanks to the really bulky fuel tanks it can carry, unlike the MiG-21.

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a lot wider wing surface than the MiG-21, making it alot more stable at low speed and allowing it to achieve steep manoeuvers with reduced chances of stalling unlike the MiG-21.

 

-The FBW system allows the structure of the aircraft to be naturally unstable whilst still controllable, in other words the aircraft was made to be really agile and versatile.

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a really more powerful engine, radar and much more advanced avionics and weapon systems, (normally) ensuring it a win against a MiG-21, should the latter have the upper hand in a fight in any way.

 

Having two delta wings aircraft in the same simulation platform does not automatically make them an even match and something to compare.

 

Now, like stated in the previous posts, in DCS it will mainly come down to who has got the best piloting skills. We have surely all seen a MiG-21 taking down an F-15C.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Quent

[jojo]

This post makes me believe that you have not flown the DCS Mig 21 Bis. Im not disputing that the M2000C is a superior fighter, but this is mainly due to superior avionics and much better weapons and radar. (and yes, the FBW. Without FBW the Mirage would be virtually unflyable) However in a guns only fight I think the Bis would give the Mirage a run for it's money. A lot of people believe that the Mig21 can only go fast and is a very poor fighter, however there are countless real world accounts of Mig21's handling in regimes it was not really designed for. The air-frame is very capable and in a good pilot's hands deadly. It's the most produced combat aircraft in history for a good reason. (1959 - 1985 in all its variants).

 

And I think most people comparing Mirage 2000 to MiG 21 are thinking of Mirage III and view delta wing only has handicap. Most of it has been solved by relaxed stability, SLATS and FBW.

 

So MiG 21 best chance is surprise. But in 1 Vs 1, head on, gun only I still bet on Mirage 2000.

The first 180deg turn is very quick in M2000, and I don't think MiG 21 has better sustain rate.

Edited September 29, 2015 by jojo

[Darkwolf]

Destroying f15 in a mig is no prblem ... so mirages.... :D

:music_whistling:

[Hummingbird]

Even in a guns only fight the MiG-21 is dead meat, the Mirage boasting a far superior instantaneous and sustained turn performance, with a higher acceleration and climb rate to boot.

 

In other words the Mirage pilot will have to be sleeping at the stick to be overwhelmed by a MiG-21 in a guns only fight.

[Hummingbird]

F-16 & Mirage 2000C compared:

[Flycat]

Nah, dude, I think we should come back to the discussion how these two aircraft in combat.

we only have these air suprerior aircraft in dcs now, no rafale, no viper or other, if it compare to these, it's no sense for dcs. Also it could compare with su-27 and f-15. However, many of our forumer have combat victory during the fight between mig-21 and f-15. :/

Finally, it's a realistic game.

(I only saw the first and the second pages of these thread.

[Farlander]

The Mirage 2000 series of aircrafts is superior in every way to a MiG-21. Now if we're speaking of pure aerobatics and flight capabilities =>

 

 

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a really long flight autonomy thanks to the really bulky fuel tanks it can carry, unlike the MiG-21.

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a lot wider wing surface than the MiG-21, making it alot more stable at low speed and allowing it to achieve steep manoeuvers with reduced chances of stalling unlike with the MiG-21.

 

-The FBW system allows the structure of the aircraft to be naturally unstable whilst still controllable, in other words the aircraft was made to be really agile and versatile.

 

-The Mirage 2000-C has a really more powerful engine, radar and much more advanced avionics and weapon systems, (normally) ensuring it a win against a MiG-21, should the latter have the upper hand in a fight in any way.

 

Having two delta wings aircraft in the same simulation platform does not automatically make them an even match and something to compare.

 

Now, like stated in the previous posts, in DCS it will mainly come down to who has got the best piloting skills. We have surely all seen a MiG-21 taking down an F-15C.

 

Im sorry, but no-one is saying the MiG is the more advanced. And i dont think anyone thinks they are the closest match because of design.

 

The reason for the whole discussion is because it will be the first fully modeled aircraft to fight the MiG.

 

If you want to talk how superiour the mirage is over everything, should i bring in the f-22?

[jojo]

The point is not to say M2000C is better than anything else.

 

But the logic telling MiG-21 had kills against F-15 so M2000C will be peace of cake is wrong.

M2000C has its own strengths and weaknesses...especially even if it's heavier than the MiG, M2000 doesn't behave like a big Cadillac (F-15, Su-27)

[Farlander]

The point is not to say M2000C is better than anything else.

 

But the logic telling MiG-21 had kills against F-15 so M2000C will be peace of cake is wrong.

M2000C has its own strengths and weaknesses...especially even if it's heavier than the MiG, M2000 doesn't behave like a big Cadillac (F-15, Su-27)

 

That is true, however it might be a little bit easier in some situations because of the more limited radar and missiles over the su-27 and the f-15... My opinion about what is a cadillac, and what isn't probably differs from yours a bit...

[Hummingbird]

We could also put it like this: If both pilots see each other at the same time, what happens?

 

Answer: Mirage wins 9.9 times out of 10

[Farlander]

We could also put it like this: If both pilots see each other at the same time, what happens?

 

Answer: Mirage wins 9.9 times out of 10

 

Any source? Or just something you guessed right now?

 

If both aircraft were flown by equal computers, then possibly that would be the outcome.

 

I fly the p-51 against another p-51.. The outcome will not always be 50/50

 

Edit: but yes, of course the mirage would have the advantage ofc..