I cant fly a loop or Cuban 8

Nedum · October 9, 2015

You should look the video of the german LW ace!

He said several times that he could use the brakes after landing full down with no nose over.

He did this after a landing on a very small field infront of the house of the family of his wingmen.

After the landing he must use full brakes to not over shoot.

I can now flip the nose at a speed of only 50 kph.

I hardly doupt that this brake behavior we have is any near the reality.

Overal is the K-4 the AC with a very ugly behavior in all stances.

Can some of you show me (track please) how I fly with this fighter a nice looking loop or, even better, a cuban 8!?

If I use the D-9 or the P51D I can do this realy easy but with the K-4 this is a pain in the ass! This bird has such unbelievable flight behaviors, I don't get it!

The old german ace said "... if she stalls this was a very gentle stall with no behavior to flip over a wing, not the slightest. She "sunk" more or less over the nose very gentle and you could get her back with no problem."

Hm.. must be another plane I fly right now.... :cry:

Ala13_ManOWar · October 9, 2015

Can some of you show me (track please) how I fly with this fighter a nice looking loop or, even better, a cuban 8!?

Probably you aren't looking at the ball, keep the ball centred and everything will be fine :smilewink:. You have to zoom straight using a wingtip as reference against horizon (once you learn to keep the ball centred, so no slip or skid). It's hard to learn as any pull gets you off the vertical line. You have to get used to it. Also watch the correct airspeed to enter the manoeuvre, classic aerobatic texts says 2.5 time stall speed for instance or you'll stall at the top. Not necessary to be so surgical precise but watch it. We have no instrument in 109 but also usually a loop is made pulling 4G's, you can do it with 3 also but be aware of your speed on top of the loop, and also do not pull harder as it doesn't help to finish the manoeuvre correctly. After you can zoom straight and reach correctly with speed the top you can loop or Cuban 8 as wished.

S!

msalama · October 9, 2015

Hm.. must be another plane I fly right now.... :cry:

No, the plane's the same, it just doesn't autocorrect your incompetencies.

Anatoli-Kagari9 · October 10, 2015

Jokes aside, I really think that the last fine tuning to the K4 tried to iron out the pitching moments, making the tail slightly less heavier, and hence, resulting in the new sensitivity of the wheel brakes.

Truth is that all texts I've read about the "G" and "K" series refer that brakes could be applied at will without fearing a prop strike, and indeed, for tight turns, forward stick and bursts of power could be used to "lighten" the tail....

I am fine with the way the K4 behaves in pitch BUT I think the elevator trim tab ground adjustment SHOULD be added, because it is there in the real aircraft, and since we now have it for rudder and aileron, why not for the elevator ?

I'm a stubborn guy too.... btw... but after a while, I give up ;-)

Edited October 10, 2015 by jcomm

Sokol1_br · October 12, 2015

Can some of you show me (track please) how I fly with this fighter a nice looking loop or, even better, a cuban 8!?

Not a "nice" looping, but considering the conditions, a good one (~3:30). :D

Sporg · October 13, 2015

Not a "nice" looping, but considering the conditions, a good one (~3:30). :D

Very good one indeed! ;)

Inspired by your video, I actually managed to make a take off, circuit and (crash-)landing using only trim, rudder, throttle and propeller pitch. :)

Interesting exercise. :)

Nedum · October 13, 2015

Not a "nice" looping, but considering the conditions, a good one (~3:30). :D

Nice Vid but where was the nice looking loop?

A really good looking loop locks like a circle and the start and end point are all on the same axes.

Ok you are "only" (very good at all) working with the speed, rudder and trim but you can clearly see that strange behavior of this bird at "slow" speeds.

What is the reason for this shaking over the whole size of the plane?

Left and right over the flight axes and up and down over the wings?

Why?

And this with this front flaps… really?

This bird burns energy as if this is a stone wall in the air.. but it can do “loops” by itself. without the overpower engine this bird would be only a victim in a dogfight!

No other prop plane in DCS has this ugly flight behavior.

This bird feels not natural in any way... on ground or in the air it's the whole time a fight with this plane and not with the enemy!

Or short; with this plane the Germans needed no enemies to get a hard fight! ;)

NeilWillis · October 13, 2015

He didn't mention a nice loop. As he stated, so I'd suggest you read the post properly!

The aircraft flight model may not match your expectations, but I suggest you may have been flying in some pretty tame simulations prior to the Bf-109 K4. What do you base your conclusions upon? Some background might help, or we'll just have to nake our own assumptions, and carry on regardless.

amazingme · October 13, 2015

Probably you need more flight hrs in K4 because I'm telling you, leaving aside these minor issues, this bird is the perfect pony killing machine and it flies very smoothly. German engineering at its finest! :)

Yo-Yo · October 13, 2015

In the real world student pilots stating that FM is incorrect are generally fired...

NineLine · October 13, 2015

Probably you need more flight hrs in K4 because I'm telling you, leaving aside these minor issues, this bird is the perfect pony killing machine and it flies very smoothly. German engineering at its finest! :)

This... guys, you may have to tame this beast, don't expect to jump in and be an ace.

Ala13_ManOWar · October 13, 2015

In the real world student pilots stating that FM is incorrect are generally fired...

:lol: :thumbup:

Yeah, it's quite disappointing indeed people take the module and at the very first attempt they come here,

-I can't taxi, it's to be wrong

-I can't take off, it's to be wrong

-I can't land, it's to be wrong

-I can't fly, it's to be wrong

-I can't handle manual pitch, it's to be wrong

-I can't manoeuvre, it's to be wrong

-I can't aim/hit a AA target, it's to be wrong

-I can't trim, it's to be wrong

-I can't...

I would say to all of them, mate, have you tried practising first?

S!

rrohde · October 13, 2015

:lol: :thumbup:

Yeah, it's quite disappointing indeed people take the module and at the very first attempt they come here,

-I can't taxi, it's to be wrong
-I can't take off, it's to be wrong
-I can't land, it's to be wrong
-I can't fly, it's to be wrong
-I can't handle manual pitch, it's to be wrong
-I can't manoeuvre, it's to be wrong
-I can't aim/hit a AA target, it's to be wrong
-I can't trim, it's to be wrong
-I can't...

I would say to all of them, mate, have you tried practising first?

S!

I guess that's the "drawback" of a realistic hardcore simulation such as DCS, where the flight model itself is so stunningly amazing - there *is* a learning curve involved. ...and it's so rewarding in the end. :)

Ala13_ManOWar · October 13, 2015

I guess that's the "drawback" of a realistic hardcore simulation such as DCS, where the flight model itself is so stunningly amazing - there *is* a learning curve involved. ...and it's so rewarding in the end. :)

Definitely, and that's what I like also about the hardcore simulation, but many people seems not to understand that part.

S!

Sporg · October 13, 2015

:lol: :thumbup:

Yeah, it's quite disappointing indeed people take the module and at the very first attempt they come here,

-I can't taxi, it's to be wrong
-I can't take off, it's to be wrong
-I can't land, it's to be wrong
-I can't fly, it's to be wrong
-I can't handle manual pitch, it's to be wrong
-I can't manoeuvre, it's to be wrong
-I can't aim/hit a AA target, it's to be wrong
-I can't trim, it's to be wrong
-I can't...

I would say to all of them, mate, have you tried practising first?

S!

+1 :)

Couldn't have said it better. :)

jester_ · October 13, 2015

In the real world student pilots stating that FM is incorrect are generally fired...

I think a lot of people who are complaining about the 109 flight model being wrong don't know very much about the 109.

I mean shit, taking off and landing the 109 was one of the most dangerous things you could do in the war!

Anatoli-Kagari9 · October 14, 2015

Probably one of the most important factors for young ww2 pilots was the absence of proper training.

In the heat of the War, they were probably sent to the airfields with insufficient training, and these powerful prop aircraft didn't have tandem trainer versions :-/

Regarding some accidents having killed even the most famous pilots, I can't but remember that most fatal accidents in glider competitions and leisure flights happen exactly to the most experienced pilots. Too much confidence can also kill you !

And that's probably exactly why most simmers when first trying a DCS module, find it rather difficult to control the aircraft on takeoff and landing, and also maneuvering ... This has happened to me several times, with the P51d, the Fw190 and then the 109. Training has always been the only worth fix !

Recently Han, one of the developers of yet another great ww2 flightsim, recorded a sequence of aerobatics with two of the aircraft on his sim's fleet. I can tell you that last night I replicated the exact same sequence in the K4!

( link to those videos in another section of this forums )

Edited October 14, 2015 by jcomm

NineLine · October 14, 2015

Recently Han, one of the developers of yet another great ww2 flightsim, recorded a sequence of aerobatics with two of the aircraft on his sim's fleet. I can tell you that last night I replicated the exact same sequence in the K4!

( link to those videos in another section of this forums )

That has no bearing what so ever on this sim and this discussion...

Anatoli-Kagari9 · October 15, 2015

That has no bearing what so ever on this sim and this discussion...

I have to disagree, since I mean, with this post, to say I was able to exactly replicate the very same maneuvers in DCS, using the K4, including:

- loops;

- stall turns;

- barrel rolls;

- cuban eights

- chandelles ...

The OP was about not being able to perform such maneuvers in DCS's k4.

Might also be interesting to know that I loaded the aircraft with only 20% fuel, and no ammunition. This light 109 K4 turns into an even trickier airplane on takeoff. Using more than 1,4 ATA is out of question, and it want's to get airborne very fast, so, one really has to pay attention to the prop effects all of the time...

And, btw, I tried to save a track, so, when I left the session and the closing screen gave me the option to "save track" I did so, gave it a name, saved, and then immediately tried to replay, but while the aircraft did takeoff, it soon crashed ( ? )

The replay only went right when I left the session altogether and then used the main replay menu. Is this normal ?

Edited October 15, 2015 by jcomm

Yo-Yo · October 15, 2015

You should have added that stall turns in Dora and K4 in DCS are only possible following Erich Brunotte recipy...

:)

Anatoli-Kagari9 · October 15, 2015

You should have added that stall turns in Dora and K4 in DCS are only possible following Erich Brunotte recipy...

:)

I used my own :) and it worked ( based on the technique I use on gliders IRL... where in order to have rudder authority we have to start the turn with rudder while there's some good airflow washing it... )

The turn must be initiated with some speed and power, for the rudder to still be effective, and lot's of opposite aileron is required too ...

Yo-Yo, could you point me to that description by Eric ? I would really like to do it following his recommendations.

Anyway, the k4 performs all of the maneuvers, provided we do not use excess power, and respect the correct entry speeds. Landings and takeoffs are now piece-of-cake for me, although taking off very light ( 20% fuel and no guns ) can be tricky :)

Edited October 15, 2015 by jcomm

Yo-Yo · October 15, 2015

I used my own :) and it worked ( based on the technique I use on gliders IRL... where in order to have rudder authority we have to start the turn with rudder while there's some good airflow washing it... )

The turn must be initiated with some speed and power, for the rudder to still be effective, and lot's of opposite aileron is required too ...

Yo-Yo, could you point me to that description by Eric ? I would really like to do it following his recommendations.

Anyway, the k4 performs all of the maneuvers, provided we do not use excess power, and respect the correct entry speeds. Landings and takeoffs are now piece-of-cake for me, although taking off very light ( 20% fuel and no guns ) can be tricky :)

As Erich had started from gliders too he used the same method: after engine is throttled catch the right speed to push the rudder. The speed must be high enough to start rotation but not so high to stop it at trimmed AoS. The plane begins to rotate as the speed bleeds and continues rotating by inertia. The last part of the turn as the speed grows is due to vane stability.

If you are home and dry with speed and vertical no stick input is required. Low prop rpm reduce gyro effect to negligable.

Ala13_ManOWar · October 15, 2015

I was wondering what you both meant by "stall turns", and I see the nicely done hammerheads in the vid :lol: :thumbup:.

S!

NineLine · October 15, 2015

How does talking about another sim help the OP at all?

Keep the discussion on DCS and/or the real aircraft.

I have to disagree,

NineLine · October 15, 2015

I was wondering what you both meant by "stall turns", and I see the nicely done hammerheads in the vid :lol: :thumbup:.

S!

I did a beauty when I first started testing the 109, mostly by accident and got a great kill on the P-51 AI with that, sadly I couldnt save the track :)

As with everything, it takes practice...

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I cant fly a loop or Cuban 8

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