Fighting AI in dogfight / WVR

[Doum76]

Greetings guys,

 

I've been looking around the forums for threads on related subjet, but some are from old DCS World versions or models has changed since then.

 

I'm having a hard to to WVR BFM AIs, i wanna train with AI until i can get online with some people due to time availablility, but i am having such a hard time, specialy in the F-15c, i'm having such a hard time to flolow or shak, im usualy flying against, F-15c, Mig-29, SU-27.... even vs a F-15c i'm having such a hard time, managing my energie is my prob i guess, i'Ve found a few threads about this but as mentionned, they are from older versions.... What i don't understand is, how i can't folow a F-15c, they keep going full afterburner all the time until i get bingo gingo and keep going vertical loops, when i try to folow, i usualy end up with stalling or always going to 200 KIAS or such... no matter what i try i just can't keep up.... Things are easier in the SU-27, but in the F-15c, damn i can't do nothing if i don't get the upper hand on the merge, controling my energie is so hard :(

 

Any tips?

[Ktulu2]

AIs are using a simpler flight model, at least they were...As faot speed management, the F15 doesn't have the low speed handling most 80s planes have, so you must keep your speed and bleed it only when necessary.

[Cik]

refrain from doing hard turns if you can manage it, remember the higher your AOA the more energy you're bleeding. try to 'sit still' in the fight and get them to pass in front of your nose and then go after them. remember dogfighting basics, lag pursuit always unless you are pulling lead to fire your cannon.

 

remember that you don't always have to follow them everywhere, just keep your eyes on them so they don't get behind you

 

i don't know how much do you actually know about dogfighting? there's a few primers floating around.

[Doum76]

refrain from doing hard turns if you can manage it, remember the higher your AOA the more energy you're bleeding. try to 'sit still' in the fight and get them to pass in front of your nose and then go after them. remember dogfighting basics, lag pursuit always unless you are pulling lead to fire your cannon.

 

remember that you don't always have to follow them everywhere, just keep your eyes on them so they don't get behind you

 

i don't know how much do you actually know about dogfighting? there's a few primers floating around.

 

 

Well i know a little bit, i'm still learning a lot, i used to be flying casual ever, doing patterns, carreir traps and so on, only combat stuff i did was with the A-10c 2 years ago and most air maneuvring i was doing with it was traning evading sams. :) I still need to read and watch videos.

 

Here a little track when i try to folow it, when i get stall and having a hard time to folow, he seems to be in perfect control. I know it's bad flying :)

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[Cik]

yeah, the turns you're pulling are just too hard. when you try to pull lead you're yanking into like 25+ degree AOA, which bleeds all of your energy. the only time you should do that is if you're totally sure you can kill him in that turn, otherwise don't do it. you're 'lufberying' too much, you need to keep your speed up and that exploit your climbing ability, not do horizontal turns and bleed all of your energy.

 

another thing you should do is a 'lead turn' where you turn in the vertical in advance of the merge, it will give you an initial angles advantage that you can turn into gun shots earlier, thus ending the fight sooner and with more energy.

 

also you're trying to pull lead pursuit when you don't really have a good gunshot. don't chase their nose, chase their tail and you won't have to yank so hard. only convert to a nose-chase when you're about to fire. you'll save energy and have a much better deflection when you finally do line up a killshot.

 

basically you turn in the horizontal too much, this isn't a mitsu zero it's an f-15. exploit your climb and dive more. if you're going to do hard turns to gain an advantage do them in a split-S sort of dive rather than horizontal, you'll bleed similar energy but the dive cushions you against loss of airspeed, allowing you to maintain an egress chance.

 

 

remember that while you can win fights by flopping down to like 150 kt, you really don't want to do it because if there is an unseen enemy in the fight or you are fighting 2v2 the enemy's wingman can easily go vertical and make high to low gunpasses against you you won't be able to defend at all. try to avoid getting below 200kt.

 

edit: if you upload that mission i can give you a track of what i mean exactly, but if you don't want to do that i understand. to be honest i'm lecturing too much already.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Cik

[Svend_Dellepude]

Just get online and train with some real folks. The AI does weird stuff and are sometimes flying with gravity turned off.

Jump on the guns n roses server f.ex. and talk to ppl there.

[Doum76]

Just get online and train with some real folks. The AI does weird stuff and are sometimes flying with gravity turned off.

Jump on the guns n roses server f.ex. and talk to ppl there.

 

That's my plan, i posted to find some people for it snd train, but i wanted to be worth it a bit before and not make people waste their time :)

 

yeah, the turns you're pulling are just too hard. when you try to pull lead you're yanking into like 25+ degree AOA, which bleeds all of your energy. the only time you should do that is if you're totally sure you can kill him in that turn, otherwise don't do it. you're 'lufberying' too much, you need to keep your speed up and that exploit your climbing ability, not do horizontal turns and bleed all of your energy.

 

another thing you should do is a 'lead turn' where you turn in the vertical in advance of the merge, it will give you an initial angles advantage that you can turn into gun shots earlier, thus ending the fight sooner and with more energy.

 

also you're trying to pull lead pursuit when you don't really have a good gunshot. don't chase their nose, chase their tail and you won't have to yank so hard. only convert to a nose-chase when you're about to fire. you'll save energy and have a much better deflection when you finally do line up a killshot.

 

basically you turn in the horizontal too much, this isn't a mitsu zero it's an f-15. exploit your climb and dive more. if you're going to do hard turns to gain an advantage do them in a split-S sort of dive rather than horizontal, you'll bleed similar energy but the dive cushions you against loss of airspeed, allowing you to maintain an egress chance.

 

 

remember that while you can win fights by flopping down to like 150 kt, you really don't want to do it because if there is an unseen enemy in the fight or you are fighting 2v2 the enemy's wingman can easily go vertical and make high to low gunpasses against you you won't be able to defend at all. try to avoid getting below 200kt.

 

edit: if you upload that mission i can give you a track of what i mean exactly, but if you don't tant to do that i understand. to be honest i'm lecturing too much already.

 

That's an interesting teply!! I'll try this all out, i normaly don't fly on eeek-end since i'm never home, but will try on monday do your advice and finaly eatch the entire movie " the art of the kill "

I will attach the mission ehen i get back home, it's work in progress sine i redo it entirely fir 1.5 but you'll be able to use it to call in radio bandit F-15's, Mig-29's and SU-27's in WVR for now.

 

I would appreciate it, i was about to post a thread specialy for people yo post in Tracks, i'm a vidual kinda guy.. :) English not being my primary speaking/reading language, even though i'm bilingual, when it get's to technical stuff, i sometimes have a bit of problem to assimilate infos, i need to read stuff more than once :)

 

 

I will get back to you when i get home on sunday. Your help and advice is more than welcome, lots if helpful post on here, but not much visual stuff.

[ChoSeungWan]

I'm not an expert so this might be bad advice.

 

You need to stay around corner speed to get the best turning radius. I think that's somewhere around 440 knots but I'm not sure. A good rule of thumb I use to stay around that is thinking of the throttle position as pitch angle. So if you're level you have the throttle centred, nose down throttle back, nose up throttle up. If you're level and turning but pulling G's to the point of buffet then you add 3/4 throttle.

Edited October 17, 2015 by ChoSeungWan

[Bushmanni]

Use nose to nose geometry instead of nose to tail (or using other terminology, use 1 circle instead of 2 circle geometry). You want to win the fight as soon as possible and 1 circle helps with that. Quick win in 1 circle fight also usually requires good shooting skill as you are only getting snap shot opportunities at least with first few merges. Practicing 1 circle fight is also good snap shot practice which comes handy when fighting humans instead of AI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Circle_flow

 

Lufbery is prolonged nose to tail fight where neither aircraft is able to gain on the other (at least quickly) ie. both are running in concentric circles chasing each others tails. Keeping up your speed at best sustained turn speed in this kind of fight is important but avoiding this kind of situation is also important as there's no quick way to victory.

[Doum76]

yeah, the turns you're pulling are just too hard. when you try to pull lead you're yanking into like 25+ degree AOA, which bleeds all of your energy. the only time you should do that is if you're totally sure you can kill him in that turn, otherwise don't do it. you're 'lufberying' too much, you need to keep your speed up and that exploit your climbing ability, not do horizontal turns and bleed all of your energy.

 

another thing you should do is a 'lead turn' where you turn in the vertical in advance of the merge, it will give you an initial angles advantage that you can turn into gun shots earlier, thus ending the fight sooner and with more energy.

 

also you're trying to pull lead pursuit when you don't really have a good gunshot. don't chase their nose, chase their tail and you won't have to yank so hard. only convert to a nose-chase when you're about to fire. you'll save energy and have a much better deflection when you finally do line up a killshot.

 

basically you turn in the horizontal too much, this isn't a mitsu zero it's an f-15. exploit your climb and dive more. if you're going to do hard turns to gain an advantage do them in a split-S sort of dive rather than horizontal, you'll bleed similar energy but the dive cushions you against loss of airspeed, allowing you to maintain an egress chance.

 

 

remember that while you can win fights by flopping down to like 150 kt, you really don't want to do it because if there is an unseen enemy in the fight or you are fighting 2v2 the enemy's wingman can easily go vertical and make high to low gunpasses against you you won't be able to defend at all. try to avoid getting below 200kt.

 

edit: if you upload that mission i can give you a track of what i mean exactly, but if you don't want to do that i understand. to be honest i'm lecturing too much already.

 

 

Here's my mission if you still want to make a track so i can watch :) You can call in Bandirs using radio menu, as F-10 (others), for now, only F-15c and Mig-29S are available. You can hop in the F-15c Air-Hot 1 or 2 slots which starts airborne about 10-15 nm from enemy spawn.

 

Edit : forgot to mention, this misison is made with DCS World 1.5

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[REDEYE_CVW-66]

Interesting discussion. ABout the use of tracks- I have found them to be extremely random and unreliable at the time being (1.5). A friend of mine and I did a mission in COOP. I got killed, he survived- in the track it was the other way around. Then he would show me a track of him doing a2a refueling- in the track he held perfect position- 300 yards to the left of the tanker...

 

Just something to keep in mind when sharing tracks to learn from eachother:)

[Doum76]

Interesting discussion. ABout the use of tracks- I have found them to be extremely random and unreliable at the time being (1.5). A friend of mine and I did a mission in COOP. I got killed, he survived- in the track it was the other way around. Then he would show me a track of him doing a2a refueling- in the track he held perfect position- 300 yards to the left of the tanker...

 

Just something to keep in mind when sharing tracks to learn from eachother:)

 

Indeed, uslay when playing around with time speed in tracks it does desync or sorta.

[SUBS17]

Greetings guys,

 

I've been looking around the forums for threads on related subjet, but some are from old DCS World versions or models has changed since then.

 

I'm having a hard to to WVR BFM AIs, i wanna train with AI until i can get online with some people due to time availablility, but i am having such a hard time, specialy in the F-15c, i'm having such a hard time to flolow or shak, im usualy flying against, F-15c, Mig-29, SU-27.... even vs a F-15c i'm having such a hard time, managing my energie is my prob i guess, i'Ve found a few threads about this but as mentionned, they are from older versions.... What i don't understand is, how i can't folow a F-15c, they keep going full afterburner all the time until i get bingo gingo and keep going vertical loops, when i try to folow, i usualy end up with stalling or always going to 200 KIAS or such... no matter what i try i just can't keep up.... Things are easier in the SU-27, but in the F-15c, damn i can't do nothing if i don't get the upper hand on the merge, controling my energie is so hard :(

 

Any tips?

 

The AI in 1.5 is now better at dogfighting than 1.2, the flights each engage and behave differently compared to the earlier 1.2 version of DCS. (SU27 and Mig29) In a 1 vs 8 (F-15C vs 4 SU27 and 4 Mig29) the AI reacts quite unique compared to 1.2 so you have to adapt. The F-15 can fly quite well at 300kts and try to keep it above that in order to not lose to much energy unless its to take a shot where you know the enemy cannot have their wingman pick you off. So weigh up the options if it seems good go for it. To evade the AI the split S is the best option if you are high enough, in a Luffberry if the energy is high enough no problem, if not then lower the nose and build up speed remember if they get lined up they'll have a shot at you. :thumbup:

[SUBS17]

Heres a track of todays mission 1 vs 8(with 1.27 it was 1 vs 12 I just need to adapt with the fuel consumption etc of 1.5) For the critics yes lots of mistakes but each one is a lesson, note the rudder use to roll in the low speed fight and lowering the nose to build up airspeed.:thumbup:

 

And one funny one SU27 AI rtb with half a wing and no airbrake lucky he had a drag chute lol.

 

:joystick:

SUBS17 1 F15 vs 4 SU27 and Mig29 gunzo.trk

[SUBS17]

 

 

 

lol this is after I got shot down in an earlier dogfight.:doh:

[Doum76]

 

 

 

lol this is after I got shot down in an earlier dogfight.:doh:

nice :P

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[Doum76]

Heres a track of todays mission 1 vs 8(with 1.27 it was 1 vs 12 I just need to adapt with the fuel consumption etc of 1.5) For the critics yes lots of mistakes but each one is a lesson, note the rudder use to roll in the low speed fight and lowering the nose to build up airspeed.:thumbup:

 

And one funny one SU27 AI rtb with half a wing and no airbrake lucky he had a drag chute lol.

 

:joystick:

 

Thanks for the reply, i really apreciate :) But as for the track, unfortunately, it's desync, i guess 1.5 is having a prob with tracks as someone mentioned in a post a few post before :(

[Doum76]

Hey guys!

 

I made a little mission for MP dogfighting (BFM, guns only), there is not much servers on, spoecialy in 1.5 for this purpose, i found one, but it has lots of aircrafts besides fighters and ground targets and AIs are there, and when you hop in and see 5 people on but they are SU-25'S or A-10's, not much dogfight there or you don't wanna piss them off while chasing them. :)

 

So i decided to make a little mission and share it here, so when people wants to BFM with modern aircraft they can host it and we never know we might get on nights and see people on your server, might not, but not trying ends up with 0% chance. :) Mission is for F-15c, SU-27, Mig-29's (a,g and s models) only, no missiles available, guns only, they are 8 units of each type on blue sides and on red sides 8 units for F-15c and SU-27, as for the Migs-29, threre is 8 migs, but shared between all models. All of them are parking hot, so it speed off taking off and stuff.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[DrDetroit]

If overtaking the target, you have to do a hi yo-yo. Basic energy management. This will keep you in vertical and not horizontal, which is where you lose all your energy.

 

You can do keep yo yo-ing and bouncing all day without ever over taking and without the dreaded turning fight and the A/C is easily acquired for a lag pursuit and kill. Will give separation from the Aim-9 too if needed.

 

Good luck!

 

DrDetroit

Edited October 29, 2015 by DrDetroit

[blkspade]

If you're in 1.5, in the F-15 you just can't turn with the flanker.You can however out climb it by a large margin. If you get the AI to try and climb with you, it'll stall out with 10K' separation. At which point you can roll over and end him.

[Doum76]

Thanks for all the replies guys :) But, movies, i want movies... reading it makes it seems easy, but anyone can make a movie of it, i'm more visual and wanna see if it does as easy as writen because when i try all stuff it doesn't work :(( I beg anyone to make movies of their tactics Bucause at hoghest skill level i'm having a hard time to shake the AI Su-27, as for the F-15c at highest level i can deal it well usualy .:(

Edited October 30, 2015 by Doum76

[Custard]

Bucause at hoghest skill level i'm having a hard time to shake the AI Su-27

Well that's not very surprising, trying to turn fight the Flanker in the F-15C is never going to work out against a competent opponent. There's no easy trick to defeat him, he will eventually get behind you and stay there. Your main option is to just to not play his game, the Eagle bleeds speed in the turn like a mother in 1.5 so don't get bogged down in a dogfight with him. Try to use your superior thrust and climb rate to stay fast and extend for a missile shot.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Custard

[DrDetroit]

If you get that close to a SU-27, you made an error and need to extend and get the heck outta there asap.

 

The best vids for WVR fighting and basic energy management is done by Requiem for Rise of Flight (youtube). Quick and to the point with great explanations as he runs through the maneuvers individually. He breaks it down so one video showcases one maneuver.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Requiem10NS

 

 

Even though a highly detail WWI sim, the basics still apply and will help you.

 

Good luck

 

DrDetroit

Edited October 30, 2015 by DrDetroit

[Mike5560]

Your best turn rate gain with little energy bleed is pulling a turn inverted. Google search "dogfight egg" and you'll see this. You can take advantage of this right at the merge. Im no expert but I like to start lower and abreast in a head on merge, with a lead turn turning upward.

 

The high yo yo is a good technique to trade speed for altitude and angle: if you are turning on a bogey and his axis is perpendicular to yours, you can go in the vertical while still gently turning towards him. If done right, you can climb and use that inverted turning power onto him with a much more workable tail-aspect. The yo yo is scalable as well; you can use more slight climb maneuvers to make smaller adjustments or if your speed is not so much faster than his.

[blkspade]

If you get that close to a SU-27, you made an error and need to extend and get the heck outta there asap.

 

The best vids for WVR fighting and basic energy management is done by Requiem for Rise of Flight (youtube). Quick and to the point with great explanations as he runs through the maneuvers individually. He breaks it down so one video showcases one maneuver.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Requiem10NS

 

 

Even though a highly detail WWI sim, the basics still apply and will help you.

 

Good luck

 

DrDetroit

 

Beside's needing to how to BFM vs a flanker in case things go sideways, there is the fact people go for guns on purpose. Also considering the current game mechanics, you're nearly always engaging at the edge of or inside visual range. Turning around quickly becomes a very bad idea if you don't have a wingman. Giving a flanker that possibly has ETs a 6'oclock low look while your attempting to extend is not ideal. If he is trying to beam you at around 8nm (considering that you're engaging at 10-12nm), you need to force him cold before 6nm or you're banzai. Else he'll come around in EOS, and give you a bad day. If he's evaded your 120s up until that point, and a generally high Pk 4nm rear aspect shot you're going in for guns (or 9s), or having to hope he's out of missile when you extend.