Why is the Mustang so much easier to takeoff/land compared to the German birds?

[msalama]

As the title says, really. Mind you that I'm not complaining, or even suspecting anything being out of order, but just wondering because the difference is indeed remarkable (at least to me). So what say you, dear gents and gentettes? Any ideas as to what may be the reason?

[WildBillKelsoe]

I think wheel spacing is the factor.

[msalama]

But the FW has a wide-track undercarriage as well, doesn't it?

[WildBillKelsoe]

you could say it is also rudder authority and shape

[Buzzles]

Steerable tailwheel is a big part of it.

[Cool Breeze]

I'd say a steerable tail wheel vs. the 190, and a wide track undercarriage vs the 109. I received some advice not to go full throttle on the take off run with the German birds. A bit longer take off run made them much smoother to me.

[Art-J]

Steerable tailwheel and a rudder trim (with +6 setting and 50" of MAP, the plane rolls almost like on rails, with barely any rudder required at all), followed closely by wide track.

[msalama]

Steerable tailwheel is a big part of it.

 

Yup, a deciding factor as it comes to TO ground roll stability IMO as well.

[Captain Orso]

I've never flown the Bf-109--yet--and I'm still struggling to control the 51 really proficiently, but I've been reading this thread DCS P-51D Landing Physics and Ground Handling and watching a lot of YT videos of actual take-offs and landings. Two things I've learned are:

 

1. During take off and landing the pilots are make a whole lot of very small rudder adjustments--just a degree or two--all the time. That rudder is just never still.

 

2. On take off with the P-51, with the breaks on, 6° right rudder trim, and the stick pulled back enough to prevent the tail from raising--about 1/3--, run MAP up to 30" to 35"--about 1 - 1.1 ata in the Bf-109--and hold it there for a moment to insure you are stable before releasing the breaks and then gently pushing the throttle until the required power is reached. In the 51 at about 70mph you push the stick forward to lift the tail and level the aircraft with the wheels still on the ground--all this time you maintain yaw with small rudder adjustments--, and when you have enough air speed the aircraft will lift off the ground all by itself :pilotfly:.

 

If you force the throttle to quickly the airframe will yaw and it will be very difficult to regain control again :joystick:.

 

In landing it is--for me anyway--always more difficult to maintain yaw. I think I'm just too slow on using the rudder. I'm trying to learn a nice two-point landing, but it's a bitch and takes a lot of finesse :huh:. With the small wheel-base of the 109 it will take a lot more.

 

Practice is what I can suggest. Sometimes all I do in a flying session is take off and land--and restart the mission after breaking something on landing :D--and try again.

[BSS_Sniper]

I've never flown the Bf-109--yet--and I'm still struggling to control the 51 really proficiently, but I've been reading this thread DCS P-51D Landing Physics and Ground Handling and watching a lot of YT videos of actual take-offs and landings. Two things I've learned are:

 

1. During take off and landing the pilots are make a whole lot of very small rudder adjustments--just a degree or two--all the time. That rudder is just never still.

 

2. On take off with the P-51, with the breaks on, 6° right rudder trim, and the stick pulled back enough to prevent the tail from raising--about 1/3--, run MAP up to 30" to 35"--about 1 - 1.1 ata in the Bf-109--and hold it there for a moment to insure you are stable before releasing the breaks and then gently pushing the throttle until the required power is reached. In the 51 at about 70mph you push the stick forward to lift the tail and level the aircraft with the wheels still on the ground--all this time you maintain yaw with small rudder adjustments--, and when you have enough air speed the aircraft will lift off the ground all by itself :pilotfly:.

 

If you force the throttle to quickly the airframe will yaw and it will be very difficult to regain control again :joystick:.

 

In landing it is--for me anyway--always more difficult to maintain yaw. I think I'm just too slow on using the rudder. I'm trying to learn a nice two-point landing, but it's a bitch and takes a lot of finesse :huh:. With the small wheel-base of the 109 it will take a lot more.

 

Practice is what I can suggest. Sometimes all I do in a flying session is take off and land--and restart the mission after breaking something on landing :D--and try again.

 

With only 30 to 35 inches it would take forever to get airborne. We hold brakes, stick back all the way and run up to 40 inches. We release and once airspeed starts to show on the gauge we let the stick go neutral and run the MP up to 55 inches. The airflow gives you a good amount of rudder authority and you'll get airborne a lot quicker. Leaving the MP at such a low setting for the entire takeoff seems unrealistic and I don't believe that's even in the manual.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I use the gyro during takeoff in P-51. I never hold brakes, just line up and smoothly increase throttle. It starts with right yaw, then as throttle is increased more, left yaw. During this transition I start gentle right pedal, then increase throttle more and more, increasing right rudder input. By time it starts to wobble, I ease stick just forward to get the nose down, then when I feel I am being glued to tarmac, I gently pull back and she lifts off nicely.

 

All tailwheel planes have this nice feature IMHO that a certain gold throttle spot is the neutral tendency to yaw. During cruise, I set yaw trim first then increase or decrease throttle till ball is centered, while simultaneously adjusting aileron and elevator trim. Sometimes, I like to climb more to get a nose high attitude, and sometimes, I just trace the rivet line on the hood in front of me to a point, and work to keep it there.

Edited October 25, 2015 by WildBillKelsoe

[Captain Orso]

Sniper, this time you missed your target ;). I said, "...before releasing the breaks and then gently pushing the throttle until the required power is reached".

 

I increase throttle to about 55 - 60" MAP after releasing the breaks. I've never actually tried to take off with 35". For that I'd need a very long runway and nerves of steel :D.

[Viersbovsky]

The critical phase in the 109 and the 190 is the speed at less than 100kh. Using brakes may cause the plane to veer off course and become unsaveable, yet only extreme rudder inputs have any effect. Once the rudder becomes effective at 100+kph, the tail serves as a stabilizer so the plane will try to keep relatively straight by itself and rudder input becomes effective. Once you are at this speed, you are pretty much guaranteed to succeed in getting the bird in the air.

 

With the 190 it is especially tricky since you need to keep the stick pulled back to straigthen the tailwheel, but be careful not to accidentaly hoist the plane into the air and stall out. So you need to find the sweet spot where the rudder becomes effective so you can unlock the tailwheel.

 

With the P51, you have an actuated tail-wheel, so the lack in rudder authority is offset by this. You can keep the plane on the runway simply by doing small rudder inputs, directly translated into tail-wheel movement that are effective immediately.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Viersbovsky

[msalama]

I increase throttle to about 55 - 60" MAP after releasing the breaks.

I've found that 50" MAP is more than enough, given that most runways in DCSW are pretty long. And this with a full load of HVARs and/or bombs, too.

 

Still, I usually take off at full power. No reason to spare those horses that I know of, y'see ;)

[Tomsk]

1. During take off and landing the pilots are make a whole lot of very small rudder adjustments--just a degree or two--all the time. That rudder is just never still.

 

...

 

In landing it is--for me anyway--always more difficult to maintain yaw. I think I'm just too slow on using the rudder. I'm trying to learn a nice two-point landing, but it's a bitch and takes a lot of finesse :huh:. With the small wheel-base of the 109 it will take a lot more.

 

Really good tip I heard from this youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/FlightChops is to "punch and jab" with the rudder. Don't hold it, if you start going off course make a quick stab and recenter then re-evaluate. If you hold it you're almost certain to over correct and get into an oscillation. Also if you really start veering off course don't be scared to tap the appropriate wheel brake to recenter, key word there is "tap" just a quick stab on the brakes can save you. If you can it's better to do it rudder only, but using the brakes is better than breaking the plane.

 

The other tip is, watch the horizon like a hawk. Don't think about the correction you need, just watch and make it instinctively and early. Make small quick corrections even if you're not sure it's the right thing to do yet, you'll develop a feel for it. It's far easier to correct small deviations early rather than waiting until they get larger; counter every movement before it begins! You need to watch that plane on the whole roll out, there is no "time to relax" until the thing is parked and the engine is off.

 

Also if you don't have rudder pedals, get rudder pedals. So much easier, more realistic and more fun than trying to use a twisty stick (IMHO)!

 

Practice is what I can suggest. Sometimes all I do in a flying session is take off and land--and restart the mission after breaking something on landing :D--and try again.

 

Sadly this is Quoted For Truth, it just requires a lot of practice. But also, having the right idea of exactly what you're trying to do really helps.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Tomsk

[wolfstriked]

I find that the pitch trim that is set for each of these planes is what makes them a handful to take off in.When wheels lift and you have to add alot of nose down pitch or risk a stall and IMO that is just wrong.In the P51 I add in 5 clicks nose down trim while on runway and trim out while airborne and it feels much better.

[msalama]

In the P51 I add in 5 clicks nose down trim

 

Yeah, it certainly helps. When I flew the Stang a lot I always carried a full loadout of HVARs and bombs, and found that adding 4 clicks down aids greatly in preventing the bird jumping on its butt. But lately, I've only done an odd circuit every now and then without a loadout of any kind - fuel at 35% or thereabouts IIRC - and have so far left the elevator trim at neutral, and it somehow feels like the AC _doesn't_ want to jump on its arse as bad as previously. But is it just me? Haven't really taken her on ops lately, so I could well be imagining things here...

[Crumpp]

Why is the Mustang so much easier to takeoff/land compared to the German birds?

 

Steerable tail-wheel makes some difference and can get you in trouble if relied upon too much.

 

That being said, I find the FW-190 is a docile tail-dragger too. Both A/C require normal taildragger control input to me.

 

DCS does an excellent job of modeling the ground handling. The control inputs on take off and landing are pretty much the same ones required for every taildragger I have ever flown in RL.

[DieHard]

As the title says, really. Mind you that I'm not complaining, or even suspecting anything being out of order, but just wondering because the difference is indeed remarkable (at least to me). So what say you, dear gents and gentettes? Any ideas as to what may be the reason?

 

I remember everyone was having takeoff issues when P-51 was in the beta.

 

With enough practice time and about 50 crashes each plane, they (all 3) are now fairly easy to takeoff and also land in.

 

Now, if I could only decently consistently dogfight with positive results... LOL!

 

Just finding another guy to dogfight in MP seems impossible for me to overcome; I usually wait to get bounced and go from there. {;^)

Edited October 29, 2015 by DieHard

[WildBillKelsoe]

in all equal right I would say it is a matter of getting used to one. I had my full experience with P-51D and now second nature takes over. With Bf-109, I am still learning her but getting there.

 

I guess there are cues to use in the cockpit to tell how she will behave. In 109, I find there is a gold spot where the brakes change to right rudder and then pull to lift off. In P-51 the rudder is the first and last before pulling. Every one has their trick.

[DieHard]

Me too, concentrate on only one plane and try to get good in her so everything I do is second nature.