AIM-9 CAGE / SEAM target acquisition modes modeled ?

[Top Jockey]

Hello everyone,

 

As a long time enthusiast of the F-14 Tomcat I'm following this development.

 

Some doubt:

 

Anyone know if things like the various AIM-9 Sidewinder target acquisition modes like: CAGE / SEAM, etc. will be featured ?

 

Did Leatherneck released this kind of information already?

 

Everyone feel free to leave or opinion.

Thank you.

[GaryIKILLYOU]

Hello everyone,

 

As a long time enthusiast of the F-14 Tomcat I'm following this development.

 

Some doubt:

 

Anyone know if things like the various AIM-9 Sidewinder target acquisition modes like: CAGE / SEAM, etc. will be featured ?

 

Did Leatherneck released this kind of information already?

 

Everyone feel free to leave or opinion.

Thank you.

Care to explain what these features are for those of us without the time to read the entire F-14 flight manual?

[Top Jockey]

Care to explain what these features are for those of us without the time to read the entire F-14 flight manual?

 

Hello, sure.

 

Roughly in the F-14 A (old avionics systems), the AIM-9 seeker head could be used in a different set of circumstances, so it had some different capabilities / employment forms.

 

Caged (or "Boresight")

The AIM-9 seeker head was pointed forward, stationary in the HUD, in this mode, I believe the aircraft had to be maneuvered to point the AIM-9 seeker head to the target.

After this, and when getting the "audio tone" I'm yet to find if the seeker needed manual uncage or not.

 

SEAM "Sidewinder Expanded Acquisition Mode"

This mode essentialy provided the AIM-9 seeker head with 2 search options:

- seeker head slaved to AWG-9 radar;

- seeker head got a pre-defined moving search pattern (more angular search room).

(Introduced with AIM-9 G).

 

There's still several other details I don't know yet, but still the Aerosoft's Tomcat doesn't represent these modes actually, and it would be outstanding to see them featured (modeled) in any sim.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Top Jockey

[GaryIKILLYOU]

Hello, sure.

 

Roughly in the F-14 A (old avionics systems), the AIM-9 seeker head could be used in a different set of circumstances, so it had some different capabilities / employment forms.

 

Caged (or "Boresight")

The AIM-9 seeker head was pointed forward, stationary in the HUD, in this mode, I believe the aircraft had to be maneuvered to point the AIM-9 seeker head to the target.

After this, and when getting the "audio tone" I'm yet to find if the seeker needed manual uncage or not.

 

SEAM "Sidewinder Expanded Acquisition Mode"

This mode essentialy provided the AIM-9 seeker head with 2 search options:

- seeker head slaved to AWG-9 radar;

- seeker head provided pre-defined moving search pattern (more angular search room).

 

There's still several other details I don't know yet, but I know the Aerosoft Tomcat doesn't represent these modes actually, and would like to see them featured (modeled).

Neat, thanks. I'm sure LN will implement these features. Rudel, Cobra?

[n8d0g]

Hello, sure.

 

Roughly in the F-14 A (old avionics systems), the AIM-9 seeker head could be used in a different set of circumstances, so it had some different capabilities / employment forms.

 

Caged (or "Boresight")

The AIM-9 seeker head was pointed forward, stationary in the HUD, in this mode, I believe the aircraft had to be maneuvered to point the AIM-9 seeker head to the target.

After this, and when getting the "audio tone" I'm yet to find if the seeker needed manual uncage or not.

 

SEAM "Sidewinder Expanded Acquisition Mode"

This mode essentialy provided the AIM-9 seeker head with 2 search options:

- seeker head slaved to AWG-9 radar;

- seeker head got a pre-defined moving search pattern (more angular search room).

(Introduced with AIM-9 G).

 

There's still several other details I don't know yet, but still the Aerosoft's Tomcat doesn't represent these modes actually, and it would be outstanding to see them featured (modeled) in any sim.

 

As far as Im aware the F14 only fired the sidewinder in 1 mode.

 

You need to engage the CAGE/SEAM switch to engage the Sidewinder in the A/B variant and you will get a "SEAM LOCK" anyways (This is purely for the purpose of a visual cue for the lock) . You'll hear the tone and the tone increase for a lock.

 

IF IT HELPS, you may use PLM mode and it will lock the aircraft directly ahead and engage STT (Single Target Track) mode which feeds target data to the Sidewinder.

 

I have attached the relevant section from the Aerosoft F14 manual, but as far as Im aware, this is no other mode for the Tomcat; it didnt have off-bore capabilities.

And as far as my sim expereince goes from the Sabre in DCS to BMS's F16, this adds up. With the exception of the Off-bore in BMS, the F16's Sidewinder functions identically (and BMS is a very very detailed avionoics sim).

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by n8d0g

[captain_dalan]

I think someone on the team could provide the best response to this. In my experience the Aerosoft birds has enough of the systems lacking or modeled in an incomplete manner (i.e. radar operations and modes), that i could not in good faith recommend it as a 100% accurate representation. I'm not saying it is false either. It's just that considering the features missing from it and that i am aware of them, maybe there are other features missing that i am not aware of them. But, there are much better informed guys here on the avionics and weapon systems then me, so maybe they can provide more insights?

[Top Jockey]

As far as Im aware the F14 only fired the sidewinder in 1 mode.

 

You need to engage the CAGE/SEAM switch to engage the Sidewinder in the A/B variant and you will get a "SEAM LOCK" anyways (This is purely for the purpose of a visual cue for the lock) . You'll hear the tone and the tone increase for a lock.

 

IF IT HELPS, you may use PLM mode and it will lock the aircraft directly ahead and engage STT (Single Target Track) mode which feeds target data to the Sidewinder.

 

I have attached the relevant section from the Aerosoft F14 manual, but as far as Im aware, this is no other mode for the Tomcat; it didnt have off-bore capabilities.

And as far as my sim expereince goes from the Sabre in DCS to BMS's F16, this adds up. With the exception of the Off-bore in BMS, the F16's Sidewinder functions identically (and BMS is a very very detailed avionoics sim).

 

 

Hello n8d0g,

 

Probably I didn't explain some points very well, (english isn't my native language).

Tell me what you think on the following:

 

I believe the core of the confusion is: there's "missile modes" and there's "radar modes" - either in F-14; F-16; F/A-18; etc, with their own differences.

And sometimes, one mix up all these modes of AIM-9 target acquisition.

 

1 - About AIM-9 "modes" in the Tomcat, I'm not referring to any HMS ; JHMCS ; or the off-bore capabilities ; etc.

I'm only referring to: CAGED as one "mode", and SEAM another "mode".

(Then there's also the radar PLM, (and others) you mention.)

 

2 - About the "SEAM LOCK" light, I believe that in reality, it only light's up when the AIM-9 seeker effectively get's lock's on target...

(Not when the CAGE / SEAM push-button is pressed.)

 

3 - I think it's the SEAM mode the one which slaves the AIM-9 seeker by radar, to the target direction. (Or, put's the seeker head on a pre-defined, moving search pattern in the HUD.)

Had the impression that the PLM mode was mainly to radar missiles...

Either way, in Aerosoft's F-14 the PLM feature aiding the AIM-9 seeker feature isn't implemented - the manual state's that.

 

4 - About Falcon BMS; and the "indentical AIM-9 functioning in F-14A and F-16";

- SEAM mode was introduced with AIM-9 G, and became obsolete / unused with the advent of AIM-9 L, (true all-aspect missile);

- the F-16 doesn't use "SEAM", the most identical mode it has is: "SLAV" (seeker head slave to radar) - that's precisely what you get in Falcon BMS.

 

Everyone feel free to leave your opinion.

[sniperwolfpk5]

Hello, sure.

 

Roughly in the F-14 A (old avionics systems), the AIM-9 seeker head could be used in a different set of circumstances, so it had some different capabilities / employment forms.

 

Caged (or "Boresight")

The AIM-9 seeker head was pointed forward, stationary in the HUD, in this mode, I believe the aircraft had to be maneuvered to point the AIM-9 seeker head to the target.

After this, and when getting the "audio tone" I'm yet to find if the seeker needed manual uncage or not.

 

SEAM "Sidewinder Expanded Acquisition Mode"

This mode essentialy provided the AIM-9 seeker head with 2 search options:

- seeker head slaved to AWG-9 radar;

- seeker head got a pre-defined moving search pattern (more angular search room).

(Introduced with AIM-9 G).

 

There's still several other details I don't know yet, but still the Aerosoft's Tomcat doesn't represent these modes actually, and it would be outstanding to see them featured (modeled) in any sim.

 

I see no point not implementing these modes if these are in actual aircraft. Well LN shed some light on the above features if you have time as we know you people are working hard.

[turkeydriver]

The Caged and SEAM modes were brand new in the 1970s, but have been a feature on basically all fighters in a sense since that time. The capability is already modelled in DCS and shouldn't really need any length of time spent to make it unique to the F-14.

 

SEAM was seen as needed once the target acquisition of the seeker head of AIM-9G and more importantly the AIM-9L/M showed that new radar modes could enable the expanded engagement off boresight of these weapons. Basically, when the generic fighter radar is in an ACM mode(narrow width and long vertical scan), when the radar grabs a target 20 degrees nose high, if the weapon can see it you can shoot. HMCS have made this redundant, as the AIM-9X and Archer types would be limited by being slaved to the radar in ACM.

 

SEAM was mearly an evolutionary step of the avionics keeping pace with the weapon.

 

I wouldn't worry about any of these modes not being implemented, although using boresight for an AIM-9 in a F-14 just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Lt_Maverick]

The caged, un-caged and radar slaved modes for the AIM-9M/P are used in the 15C module. You can find them on pages 51-54.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Top Jockey]

Hello Lt Maverick,

 

Thank you for the info. Nostalgic indeed.

 

I roughly remembered those AIM-9 modes in the F-15 from my distant times of "LOMAC" 2003 - 2006 or so...

( Dropped LOMAC because several issues, like the MIG-29 Flight Model - worst turn rate than a Mirage 2000 or even F-15... )

 

Although you present above the AIM-9 HUD modes for the F-15, in the F-14 A version there's :

 

- the SEAM mode; (with an option to have the seeker head in a moving search pattern somewhere along the HUD) ;

- the HUD modes symbology is somewhat more archaic than the symbols in the F-15 (see image below).

 

EDIT:

 

Now, do you believe LNS will model this "moving AIM-9 seeker" representing the AIM-9 G "SEAM" mode, with the described search pattern ?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Top Jockey

[sniperwolfpk5]

I think I have seen moving aim-9 seeker in a-10c. I think one of the training of A-10c shows these features. Correct me if I am wrong

[Lt_Maverick]

Hello Lt Maverick,

 

Thank you for the info. Nostalgic indeed.

 

I roughly remembered those AIM-9 modes in the F-15 from my distant times of "LOMAC" 2003 - 2006 or so...

( Dropped LOMAC because several issues, like the MIG-29 Flight Model - worst turn rate than a Mirage 2000 or even F-15... )

 

Although you present above the AIM-9 HUD modes for the F-15, in the F-14 A version there's :

 

- the SEAM mode; (with an option to have the seeker head in a moving search pattern somewhere along the HUD) ;

- the HUD modes symbology is somewhat more archaic than the symbols in the F-15 (see image below).

 

EDIT:

 

Now, do you believe LNS will model this "moving AIM-9 seeker" representing the AIM-9 G "SEAM" mode, with the described search pattern ?

 

 

Whichever 3rd party developer is developing the Eurofighter has stated they'll take current systems already implemented in DCS and modify them. I'm going to speculate that the F-14 developers will take a similar approach. Yes I remember LOMAC and FC2; I had them both also. Very fun for their time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Santi871]

I think I have seen moving aim-9 seeker in a-10c. I think one of the training of A-10c shows these features. Correct me if I am wrong

 

Yes, TMS up short with HUD as SOI when AIM9Ms are selected will uncage their seeker and make them follow a small circular pattern.

[pr1malr8ge]

Yes, TMS up short with HUD as SOI when AIM9Ms are selected will uncage their seeker and make them follow a small circular pattern.

 

You can also slew the aim9 seakerhead once uncaged with the slew joystick on the throttle.

[turkeydriver]

Hello Lt Maverick,

 

Thank you for the info. Nostalgic indeed.

 

I roughly remembered those AIM-9 modes in the F-15 from my distant times of "LOMAC" 2003 - 2006 or so...

( Dropped LOMAC because several issues, like the MIG-29 Flight Model - worst turn rate than a Mirage 2000 or even F-15... )

 

Although you present above the AIM-9 HUD modes for the F-15, in the F-14 A version there's :

 

- the SEAM mode; (with an option to have the seeker head in a moving search pattern somewhere along the HUD) ;

- the HUD modes symbology is somewhat more archaic than the symbols in the F-15 (see image below).

 

EDIT:

 

Now, do you believe LNS will model this "moving AIM-9 seeker" representing the AIM-9 G "SEAM" mode, with the described search pattern ?

 

AIM-9G wasn't used as a primary weapon in the 1980s. It was all AIM-9L then AIM-9M on the Navy side. They may have shot AIM-9G at targets to use up old stocks, but didn't carry it on cruise for missions. If the SEAM was still used for the AIM-9L, I'm sure it will be modelled. It shouldn't be difficult at all.

[Top Jockey]

AIM-9G wasn't used as a primary weapon in the 1980s. It was all AIM-9L then AIM-9M on the Navy side. They may have shot AIM-9G at targets to use up old stocks, but didn't carry it on cruise for missions. If the SEAM was still used for the AIM-9L, I'm sure it will be modelled. It shouldn't be difficult at all.

 

Thank you for the insight turkeydriver.

 

From what I've been searching I believe with the advent of AIM-9L (with true all-aspect), the SEAM feature became obsolete and got disabled.

So I guess regarding Navy's AIM-9 versions, SEAM mode was only used in the AIM-9G.

 

Eitherway, as long as the AIM-9L or M acquisition modes (not just Radar ones), are not over-simplistic at the sim it's fine by me.

[Top Jockey]

Hello again everyone,

 

I thought that, even in Boresight Mode it was also possible to "uncage" the AIM-9 seekerhead.

(Like in the Boresight SCAN and Radar SCAN modes.)

 

Please, check the red appointments in the diagram below.

[Top Jockey]

Anyone of you care to comment my previous post, Tomcat fans ?

[Kirkey_badgers]

Anyone of you care to comment my previous post, Tomcat fans ?

[Top Jockey]

 

Thank you.

 

But the tutorial vídeo only says that in Boresight Mode: point with the ADL and shoot.

 

Whereas in reality, I believe the missile's seekerhead can also be uncaged if the pilot chooses so, like in the diagram I posted...

[Kirkey_badgers]

Thank you.

 

But the tutorial vídeo only says that in Boresight Mode: point with the ADL and shoot.

 

Whereas in reality, I believe the missile's seekerhead can also be uncaged if the pilot chooses so, like in the diagram I posted...

 

I see so you mean to allow an off boresight launch after acquiring lock in boresight? Not seen this myself yet, I assume you have already tried cage/seam button after acquiring boresight lock?

 

Maybe it hasn't been implemented yet is another option.

[Top Jockey]

I see so you mean to allow an off boresight launch after acquiring lock in boresight? Not seen this myself yet, I assume you have already tried cage/seam button after acquiring boresight lock?

 

Maybe it hasn't been implemented yet is another option.

 

You nailed it!

(Although, being more precise I wouldn't call it a boresight "lock" - as the missile seekerhead wasn't uncaged and locked on target. I would call it boresight aiming.)

 

Yes I already tried pressing cage/seam button, but the seekerhead pipper (crosshair) symbol stays caged on the ADL.

 

On the other hand, I'm thinking of what you just said - if that feature wasn't implemented at the time... but being the B version of the Tomcat not one of the early ones, i doubt it.

 

There are lots of implementations on this stuff.

For instance, the first F-14 units didn't even feature the AIM-9's seekerhead pipper (crosshair) symbol.

In the Tomcat it was only added by 1985 if I recall correctly.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Top Jockey

[some1]

I think you're right, the uncage button should uncage the seeker from boresight mode, just like it does on different DCS aircraft (F-5, viggen, A-10C)

[Naquaii]

Our current implementation does not allow uncaging in boresight mode, our documentation describes it as a pure emergency mode if the CAGE/SEAM fails.

 

I do agree with your evaluation though and it might have changed, we'll take a look at it, no timeline though.