New member (ex-LOMAC), has FC 3 doubts.

[Top Jockey]

Hello everyone,

 

Would appreciate your enlightment if possible, on some doubts I have please.

 

I was away from LOMAC (and the kind) for many years.

Played DCS: Black Shark some years ago - mastered the weapons and all, but the twin-rotor blades didn't make my stile (prefer much more the Mi-24 Hind).

 

Meanwhile I've been with Falcon BMS; Stike FIghters 2; Aerosoft F-14X (for FSX); etc.

Also bought DCS: MiG-21 Bis couple days ago - outstanding.

 

Back to the point:

 

I loved LOMAC for several reasons (graphics quality, Russian Helmet Mounted Sights reasonably modeled / featured, etc.)

 

However there was a major "turn-off" for me: the MiG-29 flight model was in my opinion, under-modeled.

For example: it was easier to fight a Mirage 2000 in a turning fight on SU-27 or even on F-15.

The Fulcrum's nose pointing ability really was somewhat "weak", as also as it's sustained turn rate.

 

So my question is:

In your opinion how is the Flaming Cliffs 3, MiG-29 flight model ?

Does it model a better sustained and instantaneous turn rate than in LOMAC ?

 

Everyone feel free to leave your opinion.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Top Jockey

[WinterH]

MiG-29's flight model, well to put it bluntly, feels the least enjoyable in all the fighters available in sim currently. It features old flight model technology, relic from Lock On : Flaming Cliffs days. In fact, MiG-29 and Su-33 are the last two aircraft left in FC3 package with that kind of flight model, called "SFM".

 

I personally have doubts about RL MiG-29 too, yes it is smaller and lighter but also has higher wing loading, less lift and less thrust than Su-27 and F-15. Also, in just about any sim I've seen it, it had noticable sluggish roll rate compared to other fighters. But these are besides the point, and I don't have any hard data to back them up. Point is, if you primarily want FC3 for MiG-29, it's flight model isn't much to write home about right now. However, it is expected to get an updated, very realistic flight model sometime in future. Just recently it got first of it's updates to come : a new very high quality 6dof cockpit. New external model is next in queu and in works, and a flight model is expected sometime in future.

 

That said, other offerings included in FC3, F-15C, Su-27S, A-10A and Su-25A are each have pretty great flight models, and lots of enjoyment to be had. They are not full on modules like A-10C or MiG-21Bis but, they have good flight models, and "decent" systems modeling. In case of A-10A and Su-25A, weapons systems aren't that complex anyway, and you can still do some cool stuff even with FC3 level systems. Soi overall I'd say FC3 is still worth it. Su-25 is among my favorites still since LOMAC :).

[Top Jockey]

MiG-29's flight model, well to put it bluntly, feels the least enjoyable in all the fighters available in sim currently. It features old flight model technology, relic from Lock On : Flaming Cliffs days. In fact, MiG-29 and Su-33 are the last two aircraft left in FC3 package with that kind of flight model, called "SFM".

 

I personally have doubts about RL MiG-29 too, yes it is smaller and lighter but also has higher wing loading, less lift and less thrust than Su-27 and F-15. Also, in just about any sim I've seen it, it had noticable sluggish roll rate compared to other fighters. But these are besides the point, and I don't have any hard data to back them up. Point is, if you primarily want FC3 for MiG-29, it's flight model isn't much to write home about right now. However, it is expected to get an updated, very realistic flight model sometime in future. Just recently it got first of it's updates to come : a new very high quality 6dof cockpit. New external model is next in queu and in works, and a flight model is expected sometime in future.

 

That said, other offerings included in FC3, F-15C, Su-27S, A-10A and Su-25A are each have pretty great flight models, and lots of enjoyment to be had. They are not full on modules like A-10C or MiG-21Bis but, they have good flight models, and "decent" systems modeling. In case of A-10A and Su-25A, weapons systems aren't that complex anyway, and you can still do some cool stuff even with FC3 level systems. Soi overall I'd say FC3 is still worth it. Su-25 is among my favorites still since LOMAC :).

 

Thank you WinterH.

 

So let me see if I got this straight:

 

Basically, today's Flaming Cliffs 3 MiG-29 flight model, is the same as year 2003 original LOMAC MiG-29 flight model ?

[grunf]

FC3 is still being developed. MiG-29 just got a new cockpit. IIRC devs said MiG-29 will get a new flight model (PFM) after Su-33.

[WinterH]

Not exactly the same as 2003 of course, but it simply isn't at the same level as other DCS aircraft.

 

Only 4 aircraft left that still have "SFM" level of flight modeling are MiG-29, Su-33, Hawk T1A and C-101.

[Top Jockey]

Not exactly the same as 2003 of course, but it simply isn't at the same level as other DCS aircraft.

 

Only 4 aircraft left that still have "SFM" level of flight modeling are MiG-29, Su-33, Hawk T1A and C-101.

 

Ok then, at least it's not exactly the same.

 

So while flying the FC3 MiG-29, was there any enemy aircraft against which you felt the MiG had a poor turn rate or something ?

[Brisse]

Not exactly the same as 2003 of course, but it simply isn't at the same level as other DCS aircraft.

 

Only 4 aircraft left that still have "SFM" level of flight modeling are MiG-29, Su-33, Hawk T1A and C-101.

 

Actually, I believe it is exactly like LOMAC. That's where the SFM's were inherited from. There may have been minor tweaks. I know there was something about the ground handling that was tweaked.

 

With that said though, I don't think that should put you off. MiG-29 just got a new 6dof cockpit, which means there are no more LOMAC cockpits. The MiG-29 was the last one before it was updated (only in open beta so far though, but likely to be released as stable pretty soon).

 

There are only two aircraft which still use the standard flight model (SFM). It's the MiG-29 and Su-33. I believe they will follow in the footsteps of the other aircrafts and receive advanced flight models some day, but there's no official confirmation on that yet.

 

As someone who bought FC3 when it was released, I gotta say that we got a great deal, because there have been so many big updates to it since then, and ED never asked any money for the extra stuff they added in later.

 

I prefer full blown DCS modules and I own them all, but FC3 can still be a lot of fun even though it lacks some of the stuff that the full DCS modules have. Maybe some day, one of the FC3 aircraft will turn into a proper DCS module. Some of them are actually really close, with complete cockpit, flight model and only lacking mouse click-able cockpit and advanced systems modelling.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Brisse

[Top Jockey]

Ok, so some say the FM has possibly little changes, others say it does not have them at all.

 

So, proceeding:

 

On Flaming Cliffs 3, do anybody feel there's some aircraft against which, the MiG-29 lack's on therms of turn rate, nose pointing capability or so ? (Like for instance, against Mirage 2000.)

 

Thank you.

[Brisse]

Ok, so some say the FM has possibly little changes, others say it does not have them at all.

 

What I was trying to say is that there might be minor technical differences, but don't expect to be able to notice them, except the difference in ground handling. The way you experienced the flight model in LOMAC is exactly what you can expect from the current version of FC3.

 

On Flaming Cliffs 3, do anybody feel there's some aircraft against which, the MiG-29 lack's on therms of turn rate, nose pointing capability or so ? (Like for instance, against Mirage 2000.)

 

Personally, I don't think it is lacking in performance. What's lacking is how it feels and reacts to your inputs, changes in speed, altitude etc. Some things with the SFM might even be advantageous. To me it feels like engine response is too quick, and static thrust is too high, which causes the take-off distance to be really short (seems unrealistically short to me). I also think it is impossible to get a flame-out with the SFM. On the other hand, you cannot quite achieve the extreme AoA's that you can with the Su-27 since that got the advanced flight model (in that case ED calls it PFM, professional flight model).

 

If there ever were to be an AFM, PFM or whatever you want to call it for the MiG-29, I think it will have both advantages and disadvantages to the aircraft's capability, but for me, I don't care how it stacks up against the competition. What I care about is realism, feeling and clear differentiation between aircraft's. With the SFM's they all tended to feel the same, even though their performance was different.

 

Comparing it to the Mirage2000 is impossible right now, as it's not released yet. Of course, you could compare it to the old AI only M2000, but I don't find that particularly interesting. Wait until it's released as a DCS module and compare it then. From what I know of the M2000, it's going to be similar to an F-16 but it bleeds more energy during turns due to it's big delta wing. Falcon BMS 4.33 has a flyable M2000 with a pretty accurate flight model if you want to try it in the meantime while waiting for DCS M2000. I think MiG-29 and M2000 will be a close match when dogfighting.

 

One last word: DCS isn't about game balance. It's about simulating the real thing. With SFM it was just a rough approximation, but with AFM/PFM we are getting very close to the real thing. If real life isn't balanced, then DCS won't be balanced either.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Brisse

[Top Jockey]

What I was trying to say is that there might be minor technical differences, but don't expect to be able to notice them, except the difference in ground handling. The way you experienced the flight model in LOMAC is exactly what you can expect from the current version of FC3.

 

 

 

Personally, I don't think it is lacking in performance. What's lacking is how it feels and reacts to your inputs, changes in speed, altitude etc. Some things with the SFM might even be advantageous. To me it feels like engine response is too quick, and static thrust is too high, which causes the take-off distance to be really short (seems unrealistically short to me). I also think it is impossible to get a flame-out with the SFM. On the other hand, you cannot quite achieve the extreme AoA's that you can with the Su-27 since that got the advanced flight model (in that case ED calls it PFM, professional flight model).

 

If there ever were to be an AFM, PFM or whatever you want to call it for the MiG-29, I think it will have both advantages and disadvantages to the aircraft's capability, but for me, I don't care how it stacks up against the competition. What I care about is realism, feeling and clear differentiation between aircraft's. With the SFM's they all tended to feel the same, even though their performance was different.

 

Comparing it to the Mirage2000 is impossible right now, as it's not released yet. Of course, you could compare it to the old AI only M2000, but I don't find that particularly interesting. Wait until it's released as a DCS module and compare it then. From what I know of the M2000, it's going to be similar to an F-16 but it bleeds more energy during turns due to it's big delta wing. Falcon BMS 4.33 has a flyable M2000 with a pretty accurate flight model if you want to try it in the meantime while waiting for DCS M2000. I think MiG-29 and M2000 will be a close match when dogfighting.

 

One last word: DCS isn't about game balance. It's about simulating the real thing. With SFM it was just a rough approximation, but with AFM/PFM we are getting very close to the real thing. If real life isn't balanced, then DCS won't be balanced either.

 

Hello Brisse,

 

(Don't know how to separately quote yet.)

 

1 - that is what I'm trying to understand before buying FC 3, if I do it will be mainly because of the MiG-29;

 

2 - there it goes, related to that, the MiG's nose point capability is indeed under-modeled;

 

3 - that's what I'm looking after also;

 

4 - Was precisely against LOMAC's old Mirage 2000 AI I flew against... and was there where I felt the Fulcrum's weak AoA and instantaneous turn rate model.

 

Thank you.

[Brisse]

I set up a dogfight, guns only and 100% internal fuel, MiG-29A against M2000-5, both piloted by AI set at high skill level.

 

I watched the fight at the same time as I recorded it using Tacview. It looked pretty even, but the M2000-5 eventually won. I believe it was because it got lucky and put itself into an offensive position right away. If the MiG-29A had been the one to get into that spot, I believe it would have won instead.

 

Here's a graph of the turn rate during the fight:

[Tucano_uy]

Hi Top Jockey,

 

Just a short word of advise.

Since you seem only interested in the Mig-29, buying FC3 will not give much more regarding flight modelling than you had with LOMAC, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. But since it will probably will be upgraded in the future, I would wait until ED puts FC3 on sale and get it for a good price. Think of it as an investment for the future. It seems that the Mig-29 is the last aircraft being updated, so the PFM might still take a while.

 

About the nose point capability, I wouldn't worry about it now as it will surely change with the new FM.

[OnlyforDCS]

@Top Jockey: If you don't want to buy FC3 because you are only interested in the Mig29, it is very likely that ED will release a stand alone version of the Mig29 once they release it's PFM. (Just like they did with the F15C and the Su27). However let me note that you will be missing out on a great deal, and some of the best planes in DCS.

 

The flight models for the birds are fantastic, and the (relatively) simple system modeling is a blessing in disguise as it makes operating the planes in a combat environment much easier and (in my opinion) much closer to what the real pilots experience.

 

Let me clarify, hitting multiple switches with the mouse can get tiring fast, there is only so much space on any one HOTAS after all. You lose S/A while doing this and for those that argue that this is as real as it gets, well the real pilot uses his hands and fingers, not a mouse and tracking headset.

 

Don't get me wrong I love the full DCS level modules and the detail they provide, but I don't consider the FC3 modules inferior because most of the systems are automated, on the contrary, they make actions which fighter pilots do automatically and without thinking as easy for us as it is for them and to me that makes them very attractive from a simming perspective.

[Top Jockey]

Thank you for your time gents.

 

@ Brisse,

 

Thank you for the graphic! (Didn't even know such a thing was possible at gamming already!)

I don't doubt the Mirage 2000-5 has high instantaneous turn rate (last time I searched the web for that, found something like 30 degrees / second, or so.)

 

If I'm not mistaken it had higher instantaneous turn rate than: F-16 C ; F/A-18 C and MiG-29 C.

However, (if I recall correctly) in sustained turn rate it only wins at the Hornet.

 

Still, I know I felt the MiG-29 turn capabilities somewhat under-modeled - as I said above; even taking into account the Mirage is very agile, the Fulcrum just felt a little "sluggish" when turning.

 

@ Tucano uy,

 

I'm not only interested on MiG-29 exclusively - though it's my favorite for dogfights.

I also appreciate a lot the all aircraft LOMAC (and FC 3) offered also.

The A-10 is very interesting to fly and fight with, for the nature of it's missions.

 

I also like the F-15 - it's a really serious war machine, however while was flying LOMAC seeing it turn so well, and as good as a MiG-29 through a big part of the flight envelope - with some considerable weight; low altitude and low speed... i just felt it wasn't very real.

 

Read somewhere, that at the very beginning of Operation Allied Force, U.S. F-15 pilots where advised to whenever possible avoid close quarters combat with Serbian MiG-29s.

 

@ OnlyforDCS,

 

I agree with your review. Like I told Tucano uy, I also appreciate the other jets, but will dogfight most essentially in the Fulcrum.

 

Though I bought DCS: MiG-21Bis this week and I think it's outstanding, I will not discard FC3 because of relatively simple systems modeling - I also play Strike Fighters 2 (lite-sim) !

 

On the other hand, there are crucial aspects for me:

- the MiG-29 turning capabilities - not so real;

- F-14X (from Aerosoft for FSX) "instantaneous auto-lock feature" only, for heat-seeker missiles - not even close.

(This one above is FSX, not Strike Fighters 2).

Edited November 6, 2015 by Top Jockey

[Brisse]

Thank you for the graphic! (Didn't even know such a thing was possible at gamming already!)

 

Easy to make with this excellent software: http://tacview.strasoftware.com/

 

I don't doubt the Mirage 2000-5 has high instantaneous turn rate (last time I searched the web for that, found something like 30 degrees / second, or so.)

 

This is one of the strong points of the M2000, but it bleeds energy quickly during sustained turns. I read somewhere that the MiG-29 max ITS was around 28 degrees per second, but the MiG probably has better STR than the Mirage.

 

I also like the F-15 - it's a really serious war machine, however while was flying LOMAC seeing it turn so well, and as good as a MiG-29 through a big part of the flight envelope - with some considerable weight; low altitude and low speed... i just felt it wasn't very real.

 

Read somewhere, that at the very beginning of Operation Allied Force, U.S. F-15 pilots where advised to whenever possible avoid close quarters combat with Serbian MiG-29s.

 

F-15C vs Su-27 is really interesting now since they both have PFM's. F-15C excels at BVR if carrying AMRAAM's but the Su-27 excels at WVR combat, being more agile, having better short range missiles (R-73) together with IRST and helmet mounted sight. You can pull off some crazy manoeuvres with the Su-27. You can even do pugachevs cobra the same way it's done IRL now that it has a professional flight model.

[Top Jockey]

Hello again.

 

I have another doubt:

 

Suppose I buy Flaming Cliffs 3 today, when the foreseen MiG-29 PFM model comes out, will it be as a FC3 patch / hotfix / update / etc, or will I have to buy an entirely new FC3 version ?

 

Thank you.

[grunf]

Hello again.

 

I have another doubt:

 

Suppose I buy Flaming Cliffs 3 today, when the foreseen MiG-29 PFM model comes out, will it be as a FC3 patch / hotfix / update / etc, or will I have to buy an entirely new FC3 version ?

 

Thank you.

It will be a free update (patch).

[Top Jockey]

It will be a free update (patch).

 

Ok then, glad to know it.

 

So, the F-15 and the Su-27 have their PFMs both on: Flaming Cliffs 3, and each Standalone Modules, right ?

 

For instance, either I fly the Su-27 on FC3, or as Standalone Module its flight dynamics will be the same ?

[Brisse]

So, the F-15 and the Su-27 have their PFMs both on: Flaming Cliffs 3, and each Standalone Modules, right ?

 

For instance, either I fly the Su-27 on FC3, or as Standalone Module its flight dynamics will be the same ?

 

Yes and yes.

[grunf]

There's even a warning at ED store not to buy separate modules if you already own FC3 :D.

[Top Jockey]

Well, with every answer I'm reading here, this is really asking to get some money spent again... at 35 I should know better. :lol:

 

(7 days ago it was MiG-21Bis - which is keeping me from flying Strike Fighters 2 now.

Already shot down the German F-4 Phantom in dogfight instant action.)

 

But, I also miss the Su-27 with the HMS and the the practical system management approach (LOMAC style) of Flaming Cliffs 3, like OnlyforDCS states above.

 

So from what I've been reading here, if I got this straight:

 

1 - the main differences between FC3 and the Standalone Module will be the absence of cockpit flip switches and several systems not directly related to combat and weapons employment;

 

2 - for example in the Su-27, the several HUD weapons symbology remains equal for both FC3 and Standalone Module;

 

3 - either flying the F-15 against the Su-27 or vice-versa, the AI pilot gives a reasonable fight in your opinion ?

 

(Sorry for the hassle, but I'm inclined to acquire FC3...)

[Brisse]

I think you are confusing the standalone Flaming Cliffs 3 modules with full DCS modules. They are not full DCS modules. They are exactly the same as you get in Flaming Cliffs 3, except you buy them one by one. Flaming Cliffs 3 is like a package including all those modules, plus MiG-29 and Su-33, which are not yet sold separately.

[Top Jockey]

I think you are confusing the standalone Flaming Cliffs 3 modules with full DCS modules. They are not full DCS modules. They are exactly the same as you get in Flaming Cliffs 3, except you buy them one by one. Flaming Cliffs 3 is like a package including all those modules, plus MiG-29 and Su-33, which are not yet sold separately.

 

Now I'm lost.

 

So there's 3 different "concepts" ?

 

- Flaming Cliffs 3 (which has several aircraft );

- single Standalone Su-27 module for FC3 (few systems modeled) ;

- single Standalone Su-27 module for DCS World (MiG-21Bis level).

[Brisse]

Now I'm lost.

 

So there's 3 different "concepts" ?

 

- Flaming Cliffs 3 (which has several aircraft );

- single Standalone Su-27 module for FC3 (few systems modeled) ;

- single Standalone Su-27 module for DCS World (MiG-21Bis level).

 

The first two are correct. The last one does not exist. There is no such thing as a full DCS module of any of the FC3 aircraft.

[Santi871]

Now I'm lost.

 

So there's 3 different "concepts" ?

 

- Flaming Cliffs 3 (which has several aircraft );

- single Standalone Su-27 module for FC3 (few systems modeled) ;

- single Standalone Su-27 module for DCS World (MiG-21Bis level).

 

Nope.

 

FC3 includes several aircraft, one of which is the Su27 (not clickable, simple systems).

 

You can also buy this Su27 standalone, instead of the whole FC3 package (which includes many other planes).

 

There is no mig-21 level Su27 for now.